Technical cameras – getting started. wide-angle lenses and color cast

[guphotography]

It performs much better than the 55mm, especially towards the edge of image circle, ideally with cf.

I was ablel to push to the limit of what rm3di allows, max back rise, even combined with modest lateral shift, extreme edge held very well. I was very happy with this lens when photographing towers.

There were times I wish it was a little wider, so 43 was the perfect replacement in that regard.

 

[daz7]

How about a Rodie 45mm vs SK47XL?
I am thinking about geting a tech cam for some landscapes/architecture shots and I am wondering if anyone has direct experience with 45mm Rodie vs 47 SK digitar. My example of 45mm Rodie seems to be slightly better than 55mm in almost all aspects and the image circle seems to be large enough (around 120-130mm usable circle for close distances, so probably around 110mm for infinity) if I decide to enter the tech cam path.
For some reason though I can rarely see a Rodie 45mm mentioned in a tech cam context. Is there some sort of a compatibility problem with tech cams or is it not-so-pupular for other reasons?

 

[guphotography]

How about a Rodie 45mm vs SK47XL?
I am thinking about geting a tech cam for some landscapes/architecture shots and I am wondering if anyone has direct experience with 45mm Rodie vs 47 SK digitar. My example of 45mm Rodie seems to be slightly better than 55mm in almost all aspects and the image circle seems to be large enough (around 120-130mm usable circle for close distances, so probably around 110mm for infinity) if I decide to enter the tech cam path.
For some reason though I can rarely see a Rodie 45mm mentioned in a tech cam context. Is there some sort of a compatibility problem with tech cams or is it not-so-pupular for other reasons?

I had gone through the same when researching for a modest wide lens, struggled to find anything on the rodie 45, but I do recall someone posted on lula forum about it, a few users reported back on its performance against 47 digitar. The concensus was 47 digitar performed better. Unfortunately I cannot remember exact details of the discussion.

47 digitar is also more readily available compared to the rodie 45.

 

[4x5Australian]

For some reason though I can rarely see a Rodie 45mm mentioned in a tech cam context. Is there some sort of a compatibility problem with tech cams or is it not-so-popular for other reasons?

Hi daz7.

There is no compatibility problem with mounting the RDK 45mm f4.5 lens on a technical camera. The FFD of the RDK 45mm is actually a little longer than that of the SK 47XL, at 55.5mm and 52.0mm, respectively (Copal 0; infinity).

Indeed, @Will Deleon has one for sale in the Cambo WRS mount here: FS: Rodenstock 45mm F4.5 Apo-Sironar Digital Cambo WRS Mount | The GetDPI Photography Forum

Unfortunately, I'm unable to offer any direct comparison of the performance of the RDK 45mm with the SK 47XL.

Your comparison of the RDK 45 and 55mm lenses is interesting. What digital back and camera are you using?

Rod

 

[daz7]

Last time I compared the 45 to 55 rodie was on a Sinarback 75h (CCD 33mp, 7.2 microns)
Currently I use the Sinar Exact (that's basically the same sensor as IQ160 but cropped with added multishot) almost exclusively with longer focal lengths and have not compared my wide lenses on it yet.
I may need to check if my findings from the 7microns sensor would still be valid with the 6 microns sensor (I am guessing, yes) and with an effective 3 microns size with multishot applied.

 

[daz7]

One more thing, does anyone know if there is a way to buy Schneider's or Rodenstock's helicoids if I decide to mount some of my current copal lenses on a helical mount and CNC-machined lensplates or is the only option to send the lens to the camera manufacturer to mount it?

 

[TechTalk]

One more thing, does anyone know if there is a way to buy Schneider's or Rodenstock's helicoids if I decide to mount some of my current copal lenses on a helical mount and CNC-machined lensplates or is the only option to send the lens to the camera manufacturer to mount it?

Rodenstock lists a focus mount in their current catalog (last page) and on their website.

Using Rodenstock digital lenses on cameras without bellows such as panoramic or shift cameras requires the use of a focusing facility: The Focus-Mount can be combined with all Rodenstock lenses in shutter size 0.

Existing lenses can be installed at a later date.

The Focus-Mount ensures precise focusing and the non-rotat- ing lens mount means that all operating elements and scales of the shutter remain in the same position for best reading and handling. The Rodenstock digital lenses which can be used in the Focus-Mount as well as their focusing ranges can be found in the following table. For all lenses listed in this ta- ble the Focus-Mount is available with a distance scale (in me- ters and feet) adjusted to the respective focal length.

More information on applications and adaption of the Focus- Mount are available on request.

 

[4x5Australian]

One more thing, does anyone know if there is a way to buy Schneider's or Rodenstock's helicoids if I decide to mount some of my current copal lenses on a helical mount and CNC-machined lensplates or is the only option to send the lens to the camera manufacturer to mount it?

The Rodenstock focus helicoid is normally obtained through Cambo or Alpa as part of their mounting service. However, perhaps Capture Integration, the sponsor of this forum, can order you one direct from Rodenstock. In the UK, Linhof & Studio may be able to order it.

Of course, you may be able to find a used unit from either Rodenstock or Schneider. A Schneider unit was offered by @anyone on this forum. It might still be available from him.

If you intend mounting the RDK 45mm yourself onto an existing lens plate that you already own, for use on a rigid technical camera such as a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, you will have to ensure that the lens mount plus focus helicoid you have provides sufficient and not excessive front extension to allow the lens to focus at infinity. For the RDK 45mm lens, that distance, the FFD, is 55.5mm. That front extension is usually achieved via metal rings of various depths (thicknesses). Note that the focus helicoid unit provides some front extension of its own.

Rod

 

[daz7]

@4x5Australian: great info, thanks Rod!

Does anyone have FFD figures for schneider's 72L, 150N and Super Symmar HM 120mm by any chance, too?

 

[4x5Australian]

The FFD figures are provided in the table for 'Optical and mechanical dimensions' in the Schneider technical brochures.

From the Schneider digital lenses brochure: The FFD for the Apo-Digitar 5.6/ 72 L is stated as 68.4mm for the Schneider Electronic Shutter 0. No value is given for the lens mounted in a Copal 0 shutter. However, the corresponding table in the subsequent two-page update of 06/2012 (for the 28XL, 43XL, 60XL and 120 ASPH lenses) shows that the FFD of the lenses mounted in a Copal 0 shutter is always 0.3mm less than the FFD of the lens mounted in the Schneider Electronic Shutter 0.

Applying that correction places the FFD at infinity of the 72 L in a Copal 0 shutter equal to (68.4 - 0.3) mm = 68.1mm.

Similarly, from the same digital brochure, the FFD at infinity of the Apo-Digitar 5.6/150 N in a Copal 0 shutter is (151.4 - 0.3) mm = 151.1mm

From the Super-Symmar HM brochure of circa 1987, the FFD at infinity of the Super-Symmar HM 5.6/120 in a Copal 0 shutter is 135.3mm.

Rod

 

[kinglang]

@daz7 Rodie 45mm,I had an experience using it. The distortion was obvious and the resolution was lower compared to the SK47.

 

[daz7]

I am a bit suprised that your Sk47 was sharper than R45 as SK47 is based on a super angulon (or is a super angulon in fact), while Rodie 45 is a modified grandagon.
Grandagons generally beat super angulons on resolution and sharpness by some margin. Also, my specimen of 45 is super sharp, the only sharper lenses I have are digarons.
Distortion would explain why the 45 is not popular for architecture but I am guessing that for landscapes it should be fine.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

One thing to bear in mind when comparing analogue era lens designs (ie pre late-gen Apo Digitars and HR lenses) is that they didn't include the sensor glass in their calculations (because film doesnt have a sensor glass and is less flat, with more tolerance around where the rays need to come together).

This results in smearing alongside the edges of older wide-angles on modern backs when shifted as not all wavelengths on the extremes hit the sensor plane at the same spot. Ie the lenses were calculated to a different focal target. We are talking about less than 1mm, but it makes a difference. Both non-digital optimized Rodenstock and SK wide-angles suffer from this. I am not sure to which extent the sirorar digital lens line corrected for this, but I would think they are an in-between worlds solution with a slight adaptation around the lens element positioning as to allow for peak sharpness to occur 1 stop earlier than on analogue and I suppose to mitigate the smearing impact a bit on the edges.

If you filter out the IR and even more of the spectrum you should see an improvement in sharpness towards the edges on a monochrome sensor, for example.

This is all to say that especially on the wider side it gets tricky and on top of lower sample controls in the analogue era you also have this smearing topic to deal with. Meaning in the old days what was deemed ok to ship was a bit less stringent than late 2000s and 2010s era lenses.

That's why the 43XL stands tall above the rest of the SK wide-angles as it was developed with latest production technologies and incorporated also the sensor glass on digital backs.

The 28XL is even more extreme as it is the only "super digitar" with a target spec of 80lp/mm across the frame at f11 according to the press release. It is incredibly sharp in the centre.

Regarding the vintage lenses it is my experience that the Grandagons below 65mm don't hold up that well, unfortunately. The 55 Sironar Digital is an exception, but it also gets soft on moden backs when shifted quickly, so the large cited image circle is a bit of a fallacy as really useable are a lot less by modern standards, ie maybe safely 15mm.

That's why the 60XL is also so special, it is sharp all the way and was developed as a no compromise digital shift monster.

 

[Ben730]

I am a bit suprised that your Sk47 was sharper than R45 as SK47 is based on a super angulon (or is a super angulon in fact), while Rodie 45 is a modified grandagon.
Grandagons generally beat super angulons on resolution and sharpness by some margin. Also, my specimen of 45 is super sharp, the only sharper lenses I have are digarons.
Distortion would explain why the 45 is not popular for architecture but I am guessing that for landscapes it should be fine.

I have both lenses. The SK47 is mounted in Cambo WRS and the RD45 on Cambo Ultima.
In contrast to the techcam (WRS), the view camera never has parallel planes. A side-by-side test is therefore pointless.
I find the SK47 sharper but it has a lot more lens cast. (with IQ3 100)

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

Regarding the vintage lenses it is my experience that the Grandagons below 65mm don't hold up that well, unfortunately. The 55 Sironar Digital is an exception, but it also gets soft on moden backs when shifted quickly, so the large cited image circle is a bit of a fallacy as really useable are a lot less by modern standards, ie maybe safely 15mm.

I'd agree with all of that, although focused at closer range (interior architecture) the image circle opens somewhat and I can get more than 15mm of movement from it. I would qualify that by saying that I mostly do a lot of movements when I am stitching (usually three vertical frames), and then downsample the final file. The unique perpsective outweighs any weaknesses and even downsampled it end up being a big detailed file: the lack of distortion is a big plus too. Saying all of that I'd take a 60XL if I had the funds and one came up for sale.

 

[Buttsc7875]

The Rodenstock focus helicoid is normally obtained through Cambo or Alpa as part of their mounting service. However, perhaps Capture Integration, the sponsor of this forum, can order you one direct from Rodenstock. In the UK, Linhof & Studio may be able to order it.

Of course, you may be able to find a used unit from either Rodenstock or Schneider. A Schneider unit was offered by @anyone on this forum. It might still be available from him.

If you intend mounting the RDK 45mm yourself onto an existing lens plate that you already own, for use on a rigid technical camera such as a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, you will have to ensure that the lens mount plus focus helicoid you have provides sufficient and not excessive front extension to allow the lens to focus at infinity. For the RDK 45mm lens, that distance, the FFD, is 55.5mm. That front extension is usually achieved via metal rings of various depths (thicknesses). Note that the focus helicoid unit provides some front extension of its own.

Rod

I purchased a new 120mm Rodenstock in Copal 0 in a Cambo WRS from UK based Linhof & Studio earlier this year. I wanted a helicoid and high precision focusing. When Linhof sent the lens to Cambo for mounting, Cambo said they can no longer deliver Rodie helicoid. Something about parts needed to mount no longer available. The lens delivered with a standard forcusing ring. I did get a heads up on this as the previous year 22', I purchased a Rodie HR 40mm Rodie in Copal 0 in a Cambo WRS and was told then inventory was just about out. The 40mm delivered with Rodie helicoid. The 40 is my go to lens. If focused at hyperfocal length, the sharpness range is wide up to f/11.

 

[daz7]

@Ben730
That's why I like a Sinar P2 and Sinar P3 so much - you can adjust the frames paralellism with a hex screwdriver as there are two dedicated screws for that. Also Sinar made a "Sinar Parallel" laser thingie to help adjusting it down to a fraction of a degree.
The alignment needs to be re-calibrated quite often though and is never as perfect as with technical cameras or MFD, but for most purposes, can be made parallel enough.

 

[TechTalk]

I enjoyed working with the Sinar p2/p3 system a great deal. They are very efficient and effective production tools in addition to their exceptional modularity.

The Sinar Parallel should work very well and be quite accurate. It is a rebranded version of the Versalab Parallel which currently sells for about $255 from Versalab or from companies like Freestyle or B&H

 

[TechTalk]

The FFD figures are provided in the table for 'Optical and mechanical dimensions' in the Schneider technical brochures...

Rod

Schneider information for some of their past products can be found at the Pacific Rim Camera online Reference Library. The Schneider Digital Lenses and Schneider Large Format Lenses brochures contain a good deal of technical specifications and other information.

 

[huyu]

How about Horseman SW-D II? Rodenstock 24/35/45/55mm which is reasonable prices now?