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Tim, I agree with most of what you say. This weekend, I forced myself to look at some tutorials and learn something new in processing.Dearest Helen, you know I love you right?
But I must say that many of the most worthwhile experiences in life take work. There are simply no shortcuts to excellence or even good-enence. It seems to me that everyone who takes up photography must pay their dues and earn their chops. It's frustrating, disappointing at times, and often humiliating, but there's just no way to get better without putting in the time to learn and grow. No camera, no film/developer combination, no scanner or lens will suddenly give you what you seek (which by the way, is a very personal goal and you are the sole judge of its definition.)
There's just no getting around the facts that you have to learn the basics like focus, exposure and processing. The M8 does not go out of its way to make any of those things easy for you. It's a demanding camera in some ways. But if you are willing to put in the time, it can yield some wonderful results.
My own personal opinion (and I know others will disagree) is that no digital photographer should be operating without a solid understanding of Photoshop. And if you're shooting the M8, C1 is also a must have. Both programs are entire fields of study unto themselves. Together they can make M8 files really shine. Silver Efex Pro as a plugin to Photoshop can make your B&W dreams come true.
My advice is not to give up on the M8 but instead to take it as a wake up call. Time to get busy!
With the best of intentions,
Tim
Well said Tim and let me add my spin on this if I may. Helen digital is not a easy task as it was set out to be and learning any camera that is new to you the bottom line is it is going to take several months to get the hang of it and frankly you will have to sleep with it for awhile and really get to know it and how it ticks. All the Photoshop tricks are something to learn but more important is you need to learn the camera. It will do absolutely nothing for you at all. There is NO help when you pick up a M8 it is ALL about you and how you work it. Let me say that again it is how you make it work for you and what your vision is looking for. But to get to the end line as they say there is a lot of starting and stopping and questioning going on. Hey i did the same thing and i do this everyday and it took me time to get it under control. Right now it is a control factor a month from now it will be maybe a tweaking factor. So the learning curve is about 3 months in reality . Give it some time and get to know it and the files that come out of it. Pick a raw processor and don't try anything else for a month and work it to death.Dearest Helen, you know I love you right?
But I must say that many of the most worthwhile experiences in life take work. There are simply no shortcuts to excellence or even good-enence. It seems to me that everyone who takes up photography must pay their dues and earn their chops. It's frustrating, disappointing at times, and often humiliating, but there's just no way to get better without putting in the time to learn and grow. No camera, no film/developer combination, no scanner or lens will suddenly give you what you seek (which by the way, is a very personal goal and you are the sole judge of its definition.)
There's just no getting around the facts that you have to learn the basics like focus, exposure and processing. The M8 does not go out of its way to make any of those things easy for you. It's a demanding camera in some ways. But if you are willing to put in the time, it can yield some wonderful results.
My own personal opinion (and I know others will disagree) is that no digital photographer should be operating without a solid understanding of Photoshop. And if you're shooting the M8, C1 is also a must have. Both programs are entire fields of study unto themselves. Together they can make M8 files really shine. Silver Efex Pro as a plugin to Photoshop can make your B&W dreams come true.
My advice is not to give up on the M8 but instead to take it as a wake up call. Time to get busy!
With the best of intentions,
Tim
However, I am one of those that do find Photoshop daunting. I've gotten some instruction but its funny my brain just does not interact well with it. Nobody can make the case that it is the least bit intuitive. There is just too much there. I've been using Lightroom and am holding out for increased functionality within the program. I may not get every little last bit out of my files but sometimes I'm OK with leaving a little bit of quality to keep the process from getting frustrating.
The M8 is good but I think the DMR is stellar in that regard.What I love above all with the M8 is that it gives you the BEST canvas cum grisaille underpainting bar none.
-bob
However, I am one of those that do find Photoshop daunting. I've gotten some instruction but its funny my brain just does not interact well with it. Nobody can make the case that it is the least bit intuitive. There is just too much there. I've been using Lightroom and am holding out for increased functionality within the program. I may not get every little last bit out of my files but sometimes I'm OK with leaving a little bit of quality to keep the process from getting frustrating.
Ah, but it is a digital vs film thread! While I like digital and have seen great BW from the medium, imo it still can't touch film for those special intangible qualities that you mention, they're just different. I have some of the plugins mentioned above, including Siver Efx Pro, and don't really find any that have the qualitities that you seek. Film and digital are going to be different in that way. What's true is that good technique and correct workflow will go a long way to getting you close to what you want, of course, in the end, its the image that counts.When I shoot B&W Film the pics are soooo 'Atmospheric' & Alluring
something I don't see when I shoot w/the M8
This is NOT a Thread / Digital VERSUS Film Bashing
just Wondering how I may Fall under the M8 Spell....
hey now!!! sitting on the bleachers? moi??? hurumph!!!Yes Cam is just like Eric
sitting on the Bleachers while I develop the Film and then crowing Film is Better....
Though I immensly enjoy Developing... its Fun & relaxing
i agree its not the Camera but certainly One has Groove w/the Medium
what everybody of kind of pussy-footing around here, is your digital processing is for . the same could be said for my current film skills. you find developing meditative, i find playing with photoshop the same. it's time for us both to get out of our comfort zone and expand! no pain, no gain and all that.
**I Think You are being abit Harsh & Exaggerating about my PP skills w/Digital***
as for the camera not making a difference, that's bollocks. it can! again, you and i are complete opposites here.... **THIS QUOTE was Kevins POV which I was Commenting On***
you care about every photo you shoot with the M2, take your time with focus, exposure, etc., ***NOT TRUE ...I don't take my Time I'm quick to the Draw when out
I measure my distance between 3 to 5 ft and have my aperture & shutter speed already set
theres no long waiting...Just Catch the Moment NOW***
it's all in my head, Helen, as it is with the M8 for you.
we both need to let go!
the magic isn't in the M2 or the M8 -- it's in me and you. we just need to step outside ourselves to find it.[ [B]****AGREED**[/B]/QUOTE]
-H
While the magic might be inside of us, a suitable tool will go a long way to bring out that magic. This tool can be very personal and the camera system makes a big difference here. I know this from my recent trials with the Sigma DP-1, I really had to struggle hard to shoot a keeper with this camera and failed for the most part. I just didn't like the look of my files from this camera and dislike the rendering of their lens. There is a definite Leica look with film which is missing/different with the M8 and maybe that's what's bothering her, she does have a point!the magic isn't in the M2 or the M8 -- it's in me and you. we just need to step outside ourselves to find it.
Cam, I think you have made a *very* significant point here, two actually...it bores you and digital images need a little TLC.
I suppose YOU said in a Nutshell what my mind has been thinking...If a digital photo needs anything doing to it after basic processing its because you dont like the look of digital.If you need to use silver efex pro its because you like film,,,,,better to use film than copy it.
Believe it or not I want to use digital,but not because its cheaper and easier but because it has its own look.............Digital should be a step forward not a look back at a more beautiful past ,...............a tool to create the new,it needs explorers not copyists.....................Neil