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X shutter alternatives in the future?

What are the odds of a third party (Arca, Cambo, Alpa, etc.) developing an X shutter alternative for technical cameras? Currently, if you don't use a Phase back you are relegated to using Copal shutters (if available) or electronic shutter. In asking this question, I realize the answer is likely "not going to happen" given that non-Phase digital back options aren't as numerous (specifically thinking of the CFV 100) and the inevitable (?) move to global shutters. But, it's still worth discussing as I know I'd sure love an alternative for the time being!
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Global shutters for high end photo backs with equivalent DR to the current gen (and DR is a key reason to buy a Phase back) are far off as the physical reality of the trade off between dynamic range vs. readout speed hasn't been solved yet to be a non-trade off. The 24 megapixel GS sensor from Sony, which would be a 60 megapixel sensor if scaled up to the size of the IQ4, has a few stops less dynamic range than the state of the art photo sensors in the high end cameras with regular read out. So not only are we behind on absolute DR equivalancy by a strong amount, we are behind also on a lot larger pixel pitch.

So forget an IQ5 with GS anytime soon.

There's also no alternative for the X shutter which was borrowed from aerial. Neither Leica, Hasselblad or Fuji have the need for such a product in their photo products and there's no manufacturer in the market to be seen to step in to develop an alternative equivalent or exceeding the x shutter for basically just Rodie HR lenses + some vintage SK digitars and analogue lenses. The R&D outlay on a green field doesn't justify the expense at all, especially in this environment.

So to sum it up – if you want large IC tech cam glass (one key reason to go tech cam is the large IC of the ultra sharp Rodenstock lenses) with flash sync up to 1000, wobble-free hand held photography compatibility, aerial photography compatibility there's no alternative to the x shutter other than old school copals with sync cords which are not really a comparison as its all manual and not available new anymore anyhow.

Copal unlikely to come back. I've heard concrete discussions about it being re-made, but all ideas are apparently on hold due to the cost of tooling and minimal required production runs which – except if done in China – no one wants to go into risk for in this environment. The funding for such a risky endeavor is up in the air, basically. You'd need a vintage camera lover to subsidize the Copal relaunch with the risk to lose part or all of the outley in case demand is not uber high for 1000 USD+ copals. (You'd need to price them above 1k given the outlay for tooling alone would be low to medium six figures ... while demand for new copals p.a. would be a few hundred max.)

The market is super small and if you really need it you can still sacrifice an ebay lens.

So P1's x shutter is the only game in town and will likely be it for a while.

If you can drop 13k on an XT lens though its most likely an investment with a good runway still as all signs point to a new IQ5 back next year.
 
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Alan

Active member
I wonder who makes/made the shutters in Hasselblad X & H lenses? And Phase/SK, Leica S lenses?

There’s also the Alpa FPS. Whatever happened to Arca’s FPS?
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Alpa FPS is still available – but this is a focal plane shutter, independent of the lenses. I think its the same base part used in the Mamiya cameras.

It is great for handheld photography with adapted lenses via Alpa adapters and epecially for stacked macro with flash up to 1/125.

Leica S devleoped their own CS for the S and I'd assume the new APO S4 lenses might have CS potentially (for 1/1000 flash sync). Alongside optimized design for fast AF (low mass focus lens groups).
 

bab

Active member
Doesn't seem to me like someone couldn't manufacture an X shutter if the distribution for such was a prudent endeavor! Hasselblad, Area Swiss, Cambo and Alpa all had the same chance to market thier products with using technical lenses and an X shutter....My guess is it was either timing or partnership investment that blocked the idea. Seems one company did find a way though.
https://arca-swiss-usa.com/pages/x-shutter
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
So IQ5 in 2025?
Paul
I think there will be a new back in all likelihood next year. I also think P1's bespoke division for 24-25received a growth target which means R&D resources as well for new products. You can see their insta is alive again and they are releasing new products.

According to my knowledge next up is the 90 HR tilt and hopefully right after or soon after the XT XL. The back extender they just announced would make a perfect reason to release a SB 90 HR XT tilt.

In 2025 hopefully the 200 megapixel IQ5. If they do it right they make sure it has advanced EVF comptability and better battery life.
 

SylB

Well-known member
I wonder who makes/made the shutters in Hasselblad X & H lenses? And Phase/SK, Leica S lenses?

There’s also the Alpa FPS. Whatever happened to Arca’s FPS?
Well, Hasselblad. The units are designed and built in Sweden, and shipped to lens builders (Funinon for H lenses, then Nittoh for X lenses, then ...)
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I hope I can eat these words but in my wildest dreams there will never be an EVF for a Phase DB. Just look at their history. Cheap, cheap, cheap. Same old LCD with the plastic cover that scratches by just looking at it. Same old school handling with everything being slow very unlike a Fuji or Hasselblad MF camera. Sure, there were some worthwhile advancements for the 4150 software wise but it is still the same old - to the last tiny screw - Phase DB. Not even a newer battery which was really needed. Warranty reduced to 1 year for upgrades which is really a slap in the face for anyone who has stayed with the system for a long time. Of course the buyer can always pay MORE money to see what they can get for warranty. An EVF would require a completely redesigned DB...... no way!!

In the mean time IF a new sensor is released it will be available to Fuji and Hasselblad or anyone else in smaller formats for use in cameras that have much more current state of the art design and functionality and maybe with more advanced software - especially Fuji. It will always be 50K, 60k, 70k, vs. 8K. This is math that even the hardened Phase user has to pay attention to. The REAL difference between a 33X44 sensor and 40X54 sensor is best seen by pixel peeping from my experience - certainly not in print up to 48 inches.

Victor B.
 

P. Chong

Well-known member
Like Paul said, there are some efforts to license and manufacture Copal mechanical shutters. I am somewhat involved to source the manufacturers. But currently the min order quantity to justify the venture is rather high, even at more than USD 1k a pop for say a No 0.0. Is there a market at these prices?

I have used the Alpa FPS with the Alpa focus stacking system. I wrote about it here. Not my favorite way to spend an afternoon. 😅 but the system works. And will produce rather spectacular results. It’s just cumbersome and not user friendly.
 
Can it be summarised as follows for someone interested in technical cameras?

1. There are Rodenstock lenses with X-shutter, but they only work with Phase One backs.

2. Phase one backs have nice features such as frame averaging, but have poor batteries, LCD displays and rarely receive software updates.

3. The Phase One XT camera has too little shift possibilities (+/-12mm). Tilt only possible with special expensive X-Shutter lenses.

4. If you don't use a Phase One Back, you are left with Rodenstock lenses without a built-in shutter, as the Copal shutter will never be produced again. However, the alternative electronic shutter causes distortions with moving objects due to the slow readout speed.

5. Even when using a BSI sensor such as a Phase One IQ4150 or a Hasselblad CFV-100c, a second shot must always be taken after the actual shot in order to remove the color cast in post processing.

6. The vaunted global shutter with very fast readout speed is not in sight. Previous solutions lead to a reduction in DR.

To summarise, I would say: Why do we want to torment ourselves with such disadvantages? Should we just wait and see?
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Well first off, you can mount x shutter on all systems, ie even if you use Alpa. I love the x shutter. It works and is extremely robust. So although the outlay is high per lens at the beginning, chances are it will last a very long time.

There will be a larger XT and an IQ5 - the IQ4 has been updated a lot in the past its just that it is a very mature and great product at this stage. The IQ5 will be awesome too.

If you are not pressed, stay with team P1, camera body wise XT or Alpa are my preference. Alpa because it has enormous flexibility.

There will be innovation as bespoke will have to grow in order for P1 to be sold successfully.
 
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Phase V

Member
According to this new video, they are now celebrating their 30 years anniversary
in digital backs so they better come up this year with a more - Back for the Buck™ - thing.

 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Can it be summarised as follows for someone interested in technical cameras?

1. There are Rodenstock lenses with X-shutter, but they only work with Phase One backs.

2. Phase one backs have nice features such as frame averaging, but have poor batteries, LCD displays and rarely receive software updates.

3. The Phase One XT camera has too little shift possibilities (+/-12mm). Tilt only possible with special expensive X-Shutter lenses.

4. If you don't use a Phase One Back, you are left with Rodenstock lenses without a built-in shutter, as the Copal shutter will never be produced again. However, the alternative electronic shutter causes distortions with moving objects due to the slow readout speed.

5. Even when using a BSI sensor such as a Phase One IQ4150 or a Hasselblad CFV-100c, a second shot must always be taken after the actual shot in order to remove the color cast in post processing.

6. The vaunted global shutter with very fast readout speed is not in sight. Previous solutions lead to a reduction in DR.

To summarise, I would say: Why do we want to torment ourselves with such disadvantages? Should we just wait and see?

George, I would only add a few things.

2. Phase one backs have nice features such as frame averaging, but have poor batteries, LCD displays and rarely receive software updates.

I wouldn't call the LCD display of the IQ4 poor, I find it usable, but it does not match the newer state of the art displays of say, the Hasselblad CFV 100c. And I would not agree that Phase One rarely provides software updates, if you look at the number of updates they have offered for the IQ4 or the XF camera, it is at least as much as almost any other camera manufacturer, or digital back manufacturer (Hasselblad, for instance) has offered. Most offer 2-3 updates over the life of a camera, and Phase One has certainly done that (and more). There is a perception that it has been a while, due to the amount of time the IQ4 and XF camera have been on the market, longer than most competitive camera systems.


3. The Phase One XT camera has too little shift possibilities (+/-12mm). Tilt only possible with special expensive X-Shutter lenses.

The tilt on the Phase One X Shutter lenses is 3º or 5º each way (+/- 6º or +/- 10º). No tech camera system offers more than +/- 10º other than Cambo or Alpa, and then only if you stack tilt spacers. Also, in addition to the XT lenses, Cambo lenses in X Shutter can also be used on the XT (with a connecting cable) and the Cambo lenses add a swing option to their tilt within the same capture, at the same axis, the only tech camera manufacturer to offer this.

To summarise, I would say: Why do we want to torment ourselves with such disadvantages? Should we just wait and see?

My answer to why would be that I don't see these disadvantages as torment. To do so I would have to focus on them instead of focusing on the very positive aspects of a Digital Back + X/Y tech camera system and think of all the wonderful photographs I could capture with that system instead of waiting and hoping for something that solves some of the challenges. I realize this perspective is a bit subjective, but I don't like the idea of waiting on better technology instead of using available equipment at this level to take great photographs. If a solution to some of the shortcomings was around the corner, perhaps, but that is not the case here.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
Thanks for your comments Steve. I had for myself summarised the posts I red before. I have no experiences with technical cameras. The problem is that if you buy a X-shutter Rodenstock lens there is only the solution with the Phase One back, which is very expensive. The Hasselblad CFV-100c is cheaper, but it doesn't work with the X-shutter.
 

Mexecutioner

Well-known member
Can it be summarised as follows for someone interested in technical cameras?

1. There are Rodenstock lenses with X-shutter, but they only work with Phase One backs.

2. Phase one backs have nice features such as frame averaging, but have poor batteries, LCD displays and rarely receive software updates.

3. The Phase One XT camera has too little shift possibilities (+/-12mm). Tilt only possible with special expensive X-Shutter lenses.

4. If you don't use a Phase One Back, you are left with Rodenstock lenses without a built-in shutter, as the Copal shutter will never be produced again. However, the alternative electronic shutter causes distortions with moving objects due to the slow readout speed.

5. Even when using a BSI sensor such as a Phase One IQ4150 or a Hasselblad CFV-100c, a second shot must always be taken after the actual shot in order to remove the color cast in post processing.

6. The vaunted global shutter with very fast readout speed is not in sight. Previous solutions lead to a reduction in DR.

To summarise, I would say: Why do we want to torment ourselves with such disadvantages? Should we just wait and see?
I fail to see where the tormenting is.
 
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