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X1D 4116 first impressions

hcubell

Well-known member
Howard, with EFC, that would be just one shutter-close to end the exposure and then open again.
Somehow, Fuji was able to implement EFCS with the same Sony sensor. Any idea if that is "just" firmware, or quite a but more?
 
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Vivek

Guest
Somehow, Fuji was able to implement EFCS with the same Sony sensor. Any idea if that is "just" firmware, or quite a but more?
Not the same sensor. Fuji have been saying from the start that the sensor was made to their specs.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Not the same sensor. Fuji have been saying from the start that the sensor was made to their specs.
Perhaps I missed something, but the reports I saw described the differences in the sensors as relating to "microlenses." Does that have anything to do with EFCS? I haven't a clue.
 
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Vivek

Guest
The microlenses should have nothing to do with ES or EFS options.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
The microlenses should have nothing to do with ES or EFS options.
Here is a description of the differences in the Sony 50mp sensor as designed by Fuji:
"[Fuji] also decided to make some hardware related tweaks to the Medium Format sensor. So they customized the microlenses in front of the sensor and optimized the silicon process. This will allow Fujifilm to improve the overall image quality even more."

Microlenses...nothing to do with EFCS. So, how did Fuji do it?
 
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Vivek

Guest
AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.
To repeat what I said earlier, this is incorrect.

ES ("quiet shutter") affects the IQ.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Here is a description of the differences in the Sony 50mp sensor as designed by Fuji:
"[Fuji] also decided to make some hardware related tweaks to the Medium Format sensor. So they customized the microlenses in front of the sensor and optimized the silicon process. This will allow Fujifilm to improve the overall image quality even more."

Microlenses...nothing to do with EFCS. So, how did Fuji do it?
Electronics/wiring has to be different.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Tim,

I don't think that is correct.

Electronic shutter on the Sony A7r2 is 12-bits though.

Best regards
Erik

AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Electronic shutter...

Hi,

EFCS is only possible with a focal plane shutter. It does emulate the first curtain by doing a sweeping reset followed by a mechanical shutter.

ES shutter emulates the first curtain by a sweeping reset and a sweeping readout. So it is limited by readout time on the sensor, about 1/3s on the 44x33 mm sensor by Sony. It is capable of three frames per second, so readout time is around 1/3 of a second. If the sensor would switch to12 bit readout it could achieve short sweep times.

The GFX has a focal plane shutter, that causes vibrations, so it needs an EFCS solution. With leaf shutters there would be much less vibration.

My understanding is that the X1D achieves 1/2000s by using a combination of reset on the sensor to start exposure and using the leaf shutter to terminate it.

Best regards
Erik
 

Christopher

Active member
AFAIK cameras that offer the option of EFC exposure do so at the cost of approx 1 stop of DR as compared to mechanical first and second shutters.

Just wanted to add here as well. It does NOT cost any DR. Some importations of ES do, but it can be done without any impact on image quality. It just takes a longer sweep time.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Anyone have any idea from a technical standpoint why there would be a blackout of the EVF after the shutter is depressed? Is it a firmware issue, an issue with the speed of the processor, or an issue with the specs of the EVF used in the X1D?
In the case of the Leica M240 in combination with the EVF2 it's almost certainly both an outdated processor and EVF. I'm not at all sure what the problem with the Hasselblad X1D is but hopefully given it uses a modern processor and EVF it could be fixed with firmware.

Fingers crossed.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: Electronic shutter...

Hi,

EFCS is only possible with a focal plane shutter. It does emulate the first curtain by doing a sweeping reset followed by a mechanical shutter.

ES shutter emulates the first curtain by a sweeping reset and a sweeping readout. So it is limited by readout time on the sensor, about 1/3s on the 44x33 mm sensor by Sony. It is capable of three frames per second, so readout time is around 1/3 of a second. If the sensor would switch to12 bit readout it could achieve short sweep times.

The GFX has a focal plane shutter, that causes vibrations, so it needs an EFCS solution. With leaf shutters there would be much less vibration.

My understanding is that the X1D achieves 1/2000s by using a combination of reset on the sensor to start exposure and using the leaf shutter to terminate it.

Best regards
Erik
Then there should be just two clicks to the shutter sound? No?
 

mkerouac

Member
Re: Electronic shutter...

Then there should be just two clicks to the shutter sound? No?
I think there are actually 4 clicks. First click closes the shutter and terminates live view. Second click starts exposure by opening the shutter. Third click closes the shutter to finish exposure. Final click is opening shutter again to return to live view. Obviously click 2 and 3 happen very quickly. I don't think a sensor reset would require a click, but could be wrong on that one.
 

wellfleet

Member
Another comment on shutter lag from a Leica Forum member who was testing both the M10 and the X1D. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268883-leica-m10-and-hasselblad-x1d/

"I tested the X1D for shutter lag by photographing cars as they passed a set point in the road through a gap in a wall about twenty meters ahead of me, preparing myself by listening for the approaching vehicle and responding in the fraction of a second in which they became visible. No significant lag that I could detect: perhaps a nanosecond behind the M10, but if you miss a picture it will be your fault and not the camera's, unless you're waiting for the AF, which is not the quickest, but I could happily live with it. MF works very nicely, but it's no rangefinder M."
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Re: Electronic shutter...

I think there are actually 4 clicks. First click closes the shutter and terminates live view. Second click starts exposure by opening the shutter. Third click closes the shutter to finish exposure. Final click is opening shutter again to return to live view. Obviously click 2 and 3 happen very quickly. I don't think a sensor reset would require a click, but could be wrong on that one.
Yes, I ran another Slo Mo Video which seemed to confirm that. It appears that the first click occured about .07 seconds after the shutter button is depressed. The second click, which is when the flash fired, appeared to be about .12 seconds (120 milliseconds) after the shutter button is depressed. The third click was about .32 seconds after the shutter button was depressed. The fourth click, when the LV on the LCD (not sure about the EVF) reappeared, was about 1.47 seconds after the shutter button was depressed. As I suggested previously, shutter lag does not appear to be an issue. My understanding is that 120 milliseconds is not atypical for a medium format camera. The blackout in the LV is, however, problematic for some uses.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Re: Electronic shutter...

I think there are actually 4 clicks. First click closes the shutter and terminates live view. Second click starts exposure by opening the shutter. Third click closes the shutter to finish exposure. Final click is opening shutter again to return to live view. Obviously click 2 and 3 happen very quickly. I don't think a sensor reset would require a click, but could be wrong on that one.
My point is that if the exposure is made using the shutter and not a sensor sweep then it would make four clicks, being:

1) Shutter closes to end live view and prepare for exposure
2) Shutter opens to start exposure
3) Shutter closes to end exposure
4) Shutter opens to resume live view.

If the shutter was using 'electric first curtain' then you would hear two clicks:

1) Shutter closes at end of an exposure that was initiated by a sweep
2) Shutter opens to resume live view.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Just wanted to add here as well. It does NOT cost any DR. Some importations of ES do, but it can be done without any impact on image quality. It just takes a longer sweep time.
But the longer sweep time is not always practical and can lead to artefacts with some subjects, such as those that move during the sweep. Shorter sweep times do, AFAIK, lead to reduced DR.
 
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