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X2D arrived but weighing M11 instead. Appreciate any insight/advice.

Omarnk

New member
Ok my X2D and 38mm lens just arrived, sooner than I was expecting and, to be honest, than I was actually hoping for as I wanted the extra waiting time to be able to finally make up my mind on whether I wanted to go down the M11 route and take advantage of those wonderful Summiluxes shot wide open for street and contextual family portraiture or go down the the X2D route with its mind blowing and expansive mpx. I was a previous owner of both the X1D and the M10, and preferred the X1D for landscapes and the M10 for everyday portraiture because of the portability and the beautiful rendering on the Lux glass. In contrast I tended to find XCD lenses, while very sharp, a little too sterile, for my liking. Now with the M11, it seems I can finally bridge my two passions of landscape and potraiture photography in one package. The X2D can excel in both of course, but I’m worried that the new lenses, like the old series, won’t give me the look I’m after. I’ve yet to see enough portraiture shots take on the X2D wide open to show bokeh, rendering etc. Adapting M lenses on the Hassy I don’t think is very workable due to e-shutter limitations, but maybe quicker than before with the new sensor. Any insight/views would be appreciated. (The X2D/lens remain unopened and boxed from the UK retailer)
 
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MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Hard to compare with a camera still in the box. If you don't shoot long focal lengths and don't print more than 2 meters on the long edge, then the M11 sounds better *on paper*. I've learned that the only thing that matters is how they feel to use (and their look - see below). It's true that I found the XCD lenses a bit sterile, but the single best photo I've ever taken was with the an X1D and 45/3.5 - a focal length I almost never use. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
 
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onasj

Active member
The biggest practical difference between the Hassy X system, and the M11 (both of which I own and use) is their size, auto/manual focus, lens availability, and price (Hasselblad being less expensive for a change!). Both can excel in both landscape and portrait photography. Of course if you prioritize old-school lens looks then you are probably better off with your M11 since even including old Hasselblad V glass the total size of the lens collection is modest compare to Leica's.

My suggestion is that if you like the experience of shooting Leica M, which seems to be the case, that you pick the M11 over the X2D, though both are outstanding cameras.
 

chriscove

New member
I purchased an M11 6 months ago. In addition I have an M10M and a series of Leica glass (18 SEM, 21 SEM, 35FLE, 50 APO and 90/2.4) and had a Fuji GFX 100S. I spent 6 months comparing the Fuji to the M11 for landscapes. I knew I preferred the M11 for my travel/lifestyle photos but I wanted to see if the M11 was going to be “good enough” for serious landscapes. Well I just sold the GFX and all my lenses. From a standpoint of infield use I think the only thing you give up is a degree of weather sealing. I have used various camera covers and have no issues but you need to be prepared. I love the tilting EVF. I enjoy it better than the tilting LCD. I enjoy the small high quality lenses. I love easily switching between the M11 and M10M.

In terms of the files the M11 is very close. There is more resolution in the GFX but the ISO 64 in the M11 gives you a very malleable file. In terms of 2’x3’ prints no one, including myself can tell a difference outside of the aspect ratio.

I am tempting by the X2D ( I had an X1D2 prior to Fuji) but I will wait to see what Leica does with maybe SL3 or S4.
 

Omarnk

New member
Hard to compare with a camera still in the box. If you don't shoot long focal lengths and don't print more than 2 meters on the long edge, then the M11 sounds better *on paper*. I've learned that the only thing that matters is how they feel to use. It's true that I found the XCD lenses a bit sterile, but the single best photo I've ever taken was with the an X1D and 45/3.5 - a focal length I almost never use. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Thanks for that. Yes, I haven’t so far at least printed bigger than A0 size and certainly don’t see myself going up to 2m on the long edge. I’ve intentionally left it unopened in case I decide to part with it, since it‘s gone past the point at which I can return it to the supplier and get a refund that way.
 

Omarnk

New member
The biggest practical difference between the Hassy X system, and the M11 (both of which I own and use) is their size, auto/manual focus, lens availability, and price (Hasselblad being less expensive for a change!). Both can excel in both landscape and portrait photography. Of course if you prioritize old-school lens looks then you are probably better off with your M11 since even including old Hasselblad V glass the total size of the lens collection is modest compare to Leica's.

My suggestion is that if you like the experience of shooting Leica M, which seems to be the case, that you pick the M11 over the X2D, though both are outstanding cameras.
Cheers. food for thought. :)
 

Omarnk

New member
I purchased an M11 6 months ago. In addition I have an M10M and a series of Leica glass (18 SEM, 21 SEM, 35FLE, 50 APO and 90/2.4) and had a Fuji GFX 100S. I spent 6 months comparing the Fuji to the M11 for landscapes. I knew I preferred the M11 for my travel/lifestyle photos but I wanted to see if the M11 was going to be “good enough” for serious landscapes. Well I just sold the GFX and all my lenses. From a standpoint of infield use I think the only thing you give up is a degree of weather sealing. I have used various camera covers and have no issues but you need to be prepared. I love the tilting EVF. I enjoy it better than the tilting LCD. I enjoy the small high quality lenses. I love easily switching between the M11 and M10M.

In terms of the files the M11 is very close. There is more resolution in the GFX but the ISO 64 in the M11 gives you a very malleable file. In terms of 2’x3’ prints no one, including myself can tell a difference outside of the aspect ratio.

I am tempting by the X2D ( I had an X1D2 prior to Fuji) but I will wait to see what Leica does with maybe SL3 or S4.
You almost sold it for me until you said you were tempted by the X2D. :) Seriously, that’s very useful insight And thanks for that. I don’t print anywhere near to the potential a 100mpx sensor can provide (or should justify) and, like you, would probably not see much difference at all at smaller print sizes or on the screen. For me I just keep returning to M lenses and, at the risk of cliche, that Leica ‘look’. The problem is that it is early days in the life of the X2D and so there are very few images of subjects shot wide open where one can assess the look and rendering of the new range of XCD lenses. From what is out there, the details from the sensor appear outstanding, with amazing colour representation, but the rendering still seems clinical to me. Perhaps it’s all subjective at the end of the day.
 
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MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
No lens designed for a high-megapixel sensor will ever again have the character of M lenses (just my opinion, of course). Leica's own lenses for the SL2 are sharper and less interesting. The S lenses - older than SL, but more modern than all but the newest M lenses - are a good balance *for me*. If you like the M look (and I think liking the look is about the most important aspect of a system), then that argues strongly for the M11.
 

Paul Spinnler

Active member
Leica lenses are unique and renowned for their character and there's a reason why they are so revered which lies in their look: The bokeh, the smoothness of the sharpness falloff, the micro contrast wide-open ... especially the Summiluxes.

In addition, remember that the M11 can both be precise with the APO lenses and characterful with the Summiluxes at the same time.

In effect, there is no substitute for the M Summilux in my humble opinion and in terms of output you won't see a big difference in sharpness due to the megapixels, but definitely in terms of the uniqueness of the lenses ... to be able to use the Summiluxes alone the M system is priceless in my book ... they have a way of capturing light which is just beautiful which is characterized by a glow ("swallowing light") in combination with heightened micro-contrast already at 1.4 ... if you use the Apo 35 / 50 you will have perfect landscape lenses which can create very detailed imagery and with the Summiluxes you have perfect portrait lenses with a unique look ... so in my view a very enticing combo. And for me the biggest benefit is the compactness of the system ... the M is highly unobtrusive while I imagine the new X to be a tad bigger which nudges it slightly out of the "bring anywhere" sphere ... the M you can sling around and carry around really anywhere, all day long ...
 
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jduncan

Active member
Ok my X2D and 38mm lens just arrived, sooner than I was expecting and, to be honest, than I was actually hoping for as I wanted the extra waiting time to be able to finally make up my mind on whether I wanted to go down the M11 route and take advantage of those wonderful Summiluxes shot wide open for street and contextual family portraiture or go down the the X2D route with its mind blowing and expansive mpx. I was a previous owner of both the X1D and the M10, and preferred the X1D for landscapes and the M10 for everyday portraiture because of the portability and the beautiful rendering on the Lux glass. In contrast I tended to find XCD lenses, while very sharp, a little too sterile, for my liking. Now with the M11, it seems I can finally bridge my two passions of landscape and potraiture photography in one package. The X2D can excel in both of course, but I’m worried that the new lenses, like the old series, won’t give me the look I’m after. I’ve yet to see enough portraiture shots take on the X2D wide open to show bokeh, rendering etc. Adapting M lenses on the Hassy I don’t think is very workable due to e-shutter limitations, but maybe quicker than before with the new sensor. Any insight/views would be appreciated. (The X2D/lens remain unopened and boxed from the UK retailer)
The cameras are so different, from sensor size, sensor aspect ratio, size, focusing systems etc.
It's a nice conundrum do have on the other hand.

Best regards,
 

nathantw

Active member
I wanted to go down the M11 route and take advantage of those wonderful Summiluxes shot wide open for street
I've wanted a M camera for decades. I still want one, but if the time came to pull the trigger I won't. Why? Because of the rangefinder; one of the most important part of the camera. I read about that decades ago and apparently it's still a weak point. From some of the recent videos and forum messages I've watched and read the rangefinder can get out of alignment. In one video he had 3 Leicas including the M11 and each one of them went out of alignment. So, unless the next Leica comes with an EVF I won't seriously consider buying one. I know there's an attachable EVF but I'm not a fan of the look. Another thing is that if you buy a big, fast lens, the lens hood and the lens itself can get in the way of framing a picture because it blocks the rangefinder view. You'll be required to use the LCD on the back of the camera and use it like a point and shoot.

So, that said I'd stick with the X2D. An adapter was just announced that will autofocus Leica M lenses with the X2D.
 
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Omarnk

New member
Leica lenses are unique and renowned for their character and there's a reason why they are so revered which lies in their look: The bokeh, the smoothness of the sharpness falloff, the micro contrast wide-open ... especially the Summiluxes.

In addition, remember that the M11 can both be precise with the APO lenses and characterful with the Summiluxes at the same time.

In effect, there is no substitute for the M Summilux in my humble opinion and in terms of output you won't see a big difference in sharpness due to the megapixels, but definitely in terms of the uniqueness of the lenses ... to be able to use the Summiluxes alone the M system is priceless in my book ... they have a way of capturing light which is just beautiful which is characterized by a glow ("swallowing light") in combination with heightened micro-contrast already at 1.4 ... if you use the Apo 35 / 50 you will have perfect landscape lenses which can create very detailed imagery and with the Summiluxes you have perfect portrait lenses with a unique look ... so in my view a very enticing combo. And for me the biggest benefit is the compactness of the system ... the M is highly unobtrusive while I imagine the new X to be a tad bigger which nudges it slightly out of the "bring anywhere" sphere ... the M you can sling around and carry around really anywhere, all day long ...
Leica lenses are unique and renowned for their character and there's a reason why they are so revered which lies in their look: The bokeh, the smoothness of the sharpness falloff, the micro contrast wide-open ... especially the Summiluxes.

In addition, remember that the M11 can both be precise with the APO lenses and characterful with the Summiluxes at the same time.

In effect, there is no substitute for the M Summilux in my humble opinion and in terms of output you won't see a big difference in sharpness due to the megapixels, but definitely in terms of the uniqueness of the lenses ... to be able to use the Summiluxes alone the M system is priceless in my book ... they have a way of capturing light which is just beautiful which is characterized by a glow ("swallowing light") in combination with heightened micro-contrast already at 1.4 ... if you use the Apo 35 / 50 you will have perfect landscape lenses which can create very detailed imagery and with the Summiluxes you have perfect portrait lenses with a unique look ... so in my view a very enticing combo. And for me the biggest benefit is the compactness of the system ... the M is highly unobtrusive while I imagine the new X to be a tad bigger which nudges it slightly out of the "bring anywhere" sphere ... the M you can sling around and carry around really anywhere, all day long ...
You’ve captured it perfectly there. I’m just drawn to that ‘characterful’ Lux lens look as you call it. I can spot it a mile away in images. It’s a real tough one though, as both systems have their advantages, but I do feel that with the latest M, rangefinder peculiarities not withstanding, that the M11 is getting more and more versatile (e.g dynamic range improvements, long exposure capabilities vs M10 etc) such that the differences with a medium format product like the X2D are getting less significant. I don’t see the 100mpx vs 60mpx advantage that the latter has over the M11 as being compelling enough.
 

Omarnk

New member
I've wanted a M camera for decades. I still want one, but if the time came to pull the trigger I won't. Why? Because of the rangefinder; one of the most important part of the camera. I read about that decades ago and apparently it's still a weak point. From some of the recent videos and forum messages I've watched and read the rangefinder can get out of alignment. In one video he had 3 Leicas including the M11 and each one of them went out of alignment. So, unless the next Leica comes with an EVF I won't seriously consider buying one. I know there's an attachable EVF but I'm not a fan of the look. Another thing is that if you buy a big, fast lens, the lens hood and the lens itself can get in the way of framing a picture because it blocks the rangefinder view. You'll be required to use the LCD on the back of the camera and use it like a point and shoot.

So, that said I'd stick with the X2D. An adapter was just announced that will autofocus Leica M lenses with the X2D.
Thanks. Yes, I guess rangefinder calibration issues are a negative. Not sure how common they are or whether they are increasing in frequency. But the Techart X adapter sounds intriguing. If they can carry this offer properly and the X2D’s e-sensor readout speed, which I hear is now 1/6s and faster than the X1D’s 1/3s, allows for a more manageable shot, then we are onto something. I can live with cropping out the vignetting to somewhere close to a 35mm sensor image circle—provided there are no color shifts, aberrations or distortions in the image and it gets close to the look one would get with the M11 + Summilux.
 

Paul Spinnler

Active member
Thanks. Yes, I guess rangefinder calibration issues are a negative. Not sure how common they are or whether they are increasing in frequency. But the Techart X adapter sounds intriguing. If they can carry this offer properly and the X2D’s e-sensor readout speed, which I hear is now 1/6s and faster than the X1D’s 1/3s, allows for a more manageable shot, then we are onto something. I can live with cropping out the vignetting to somewhere close to a 35mm sensor image circle—provided there are no color shifts, aberrations or distortions in the image and it gets close to the look one would get with the M11 + Summilux.
It is not that of an issue. I had an M since 2009 when the M9 was introduced. Never had misalignment issues, maybe luck. Nowadays I use the EVF with the magnification focusing aid which also works just with Live View. They are doing something right … and actually I never lost money with any Leica M lens. I bought the Nocti 50 in 2010 I think for somewhere beteeen 6-7k EUR and sold it for 9k in 2019 …No other system has such high value retention … just the bodies lose value, but then less than other systems, ie effectively if you buy an M11 now it will still be worth 5k in 3 years whereas the X system stuff depreciated more ... cannot go wrong with Summiluxes. I sold both the 35 / 50 a few months ago because I knew that revisions are coming and only in the case of the FLE35 I lost a grand whereas with the Summilux 50 I made a small profit compared to when I bought it in 2009 ... the very rare lenses gain even more value, eg Nocti 75, Summilux 90 ... so it means that you get paid to use them, in essence ... like you get paid to wear Rolex watches if you get allocated a good model ...

Combine these aspects with the innate craftsmanship of the products and resulting unique and beautiful output - to me a very compelling system!
 
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Ray Harrison

Well-known member
I've wanted a M camera for decades. I still want one, but if the time came to pull the trigger I won't. Why? Because of the rangefinder; one of the most important part of the camera. I read about that decades ago and apparently it's still a weak point. From some of the recent videos and forum messages I've watched and read the rangefinder can get out of alignment. In one video he had 3 Leicas including the M11 and each one of them went out of alignment. So, unless the next Leica comes with an EVF I won't seriously consider buying one. I know there's an attachable EVF but I'm not a fan of the look. Another thing is that if you buy a big, fast lens, the lens hood and the lens itself can get in the way of framing a picture because it blocks the rangefinder view. You'll be required to use the LCD on the back of the camera and use it like a point and shoot.

So, that said I'd stick with the X2D. An adapter was just announced that will autofocus Leica M lenses with the X2D.
Forums and YouTube tend to unnaturally amplify problems :). As a friendly counterpoint, I've personally been shooting M cameras for coming up on 12 years with never a rangefinder issue and I've never babied my bodies. They are incredibly well built, those rangefinder mechanisms. Clearly, they are mechanical and while they take rough treatment, they do need adjusting now and again for some people, but I would never hesitate to by an M. Exquisite, extremely well-built and well-crafted cameras. Of course, you're absolutely right: if you have a large, fast lens that blocks part of the viewfinder, you're going to need to work within the bounds and constraints that it imposes, as with any system. Lots of people do it though, with or without an EVF.
 

Geoff

Well-known member
The M is a magnificent camera and system, many of us have been dedicated to them for years. Flexibility, ease of use, small form factor, top quality. Mind you, not all have been winners - the M8 isn't one of the faves, but the M10M is just a sheer delight. The only issue is the weight - they are dense pieces of metal machinery, and not quite as light as we have become accustomed to. With the small 35mm Color Skopar tho, its back to its small form factor and a joy to use. As to rangefinder issues - never really had them. Not sure what all the fuss is about - but I'm not focusing on eyes at f1.4 either...
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member

tcdeveau

Well-known member
The M is a magnificent camera and system, many of us have been dedicated to them for years. Flexibility, ease of use, small form factor, top quality. Mind you, not all have been winners - the M8 isn't one of the faves, but the M10M is just a sheer delight. The only issue is the weight - they are dense pieces of metal machinery, and not quite as light as we have become accustomed to. With the small 35mm Color Skopar tho, its back to its small form factor and a joy to use. As to rangefinder issues - never really had them. Not sure what all the fuss is about - but I'm not focusing on eyes at f1.4 either...
I sold my M10M but all of this M talk makes me want another one….100% agree about the delightfulness

never had any rangefinder issues with mine when I had it. I also didn’t abuse it, but didn’t exactly baby it either. I’m actually one of the few that preferred to use LV on the screen. I didn’t find any merit to using the rangefinder for the sake of it when my hit rate with the Noctilux and Summiluxes was much better with LV. To each their own though.
 

Paul Spinnler

Active member
Well the M11M is in the pipeline for sometime in 2023! 60 megapixel of beautiful tonal transitions!

Fully agree, "delightful" is the right word. I just love picking it up - it is a nice artefact with a fantastic output to match.
 

algrove

Well-known member
The Leica lenses are the best in the world period. The M11 is the best digital M camera to date IMHO. The only downfall no AF. If that means little to you, for street (since for landscape this does not seem to matter) the answer is clear.

I still cling to my Fuji 100S, but once I use the M11 more it just might go on the For Sale list. I got into Medium Format (Phase) since I thought I would buy a large printer. Finally realized that was crazy for me and now print mainly maximum on 17x22 paper with plenty on 13x19 paper.

So what you do with your images can be an important deciding factor.
 
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