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Thread: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

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    IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    My IQ180 is loose on my Alpa and on its own protective plate.
    Both rattle, with a fair bit of play.

    I read someone else having a similar issue, and wondered what the fix was - on Phase's part, or on Alpa's? I can't find that thread now. My previous Phase back was fine.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Optechs Digital
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Hi Sendog,

    Alpa makes two versions of the adapter plate, one for Phase backs and one for Leaf backs. There is an indication on the plate itself to indicate which it is specified for. "00" is for Phase and "000" is for Leaf.

    On the IQ backs it has been discovered that the Leaf mount plate is actually providing a better fit than the Phase specified mount plate.

    If you are looking for an immediate solution you can purchase an Alpa 000 Leaf plate and you should have a perfect fit.

    If you can wait a bit, Alpa is working out a conversion kit to modify your existing plate to fit the IQ back. We don't yet know the price or timeline for availability but it is being addressed and is a priority item.

    Best Regards,
    Paul



    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    My IQ180 is loose on my Alpa and on its own protective plate.
    Both rattle, with a fair bit of play.

    I read someone else having a similar issue, and wondered what the fix was - on Phase's part, or on Alpa's? I can't find that thread now. My previous Phase back was fine.

    Thanks.

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    Member Paul David's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Paul,

    The problem is either with Phase One changing the spec of the back, or with Alpa. Having recently invested many thousands in an Alpa system (with you) and many more in Phase One, it is reasonable to expect that the IQ system should continue to function as it does with my P65+ back.

    If the problem is with Phase it is reasonable to have them either fix the back so it will maintain the specs of the P65+ or cover any costs involved involved in having it fit the same bodies as the P65+. If the problem is with Alpa then they should fix the problem at no additional charge.

    As a dealer, you have been more than superb! Above and beyond any expectations. And as I have a long history of Phase with Capture Integration, who has also been excellent, I feel caught in the middle. My IQ 180 is on it's way, and we'll see how it fits my TC body. Hopefully it will fit fine. If not I hope both companies will jump in and solve the problem.

    Paul



    Quote Originally Posted by Optechs Digital View Post
    Hi Sendog,

    Alpa makes two versions of the adapter plate, one for Phase backs and one for Leaf backs. There is an indication on the plate itself to indicate which it is specified for. "00" is for Phase and "000" is for Leaf.

    On the IQ backs it has been discovered that the Leaf mount plate is actually providing a better fit than the Phase specified mount plate.

    If you are looking for an immediate solution you can purchase an Alpa 000 Leaf plate and you should have a perfect fit.

    If you can wait a bit, Alpa is working out a conversion kit to modify your existing plate to fit the IQ back. We don't yet know the price or timeline for availability but it is being addressed and is a priority item.

    Best Regards,
    Paul

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul David View Post
    The problem is either with Phase One changing the spec of the back, or with Alpa.
    It seems to me that if people with existing P series backs have them fitting perfectly firmly on their Mamiya/Phase One 645AFD I/II/III/DF bodies, Alpas, Arcas, Cambo, etc, and then more than a few IQ backs seem variable on AFD & DF bodies, plus Alpa (and I expect Arca/Cambo too btw) then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out where the problem probably lies ...

    If it were just Alpa fitting that was loose then it would be pretty obvious who needs to make a change. Since there are reports here of some being loose on Phase One cameras I think it's a bit damning on Phase One.

    Btw, I have a similar issue with my Leaf back on my AFD II/DF being slightly loose yet my P40+ fits like a glove on all of my gear, including Alpa.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    It seems to me that if people with existing P series backs have them fitting perfectly firmly on their Mamiya/Phase One 645AFD I/II/III/DF bodies, Alpas, Arcas, Cambo, etc, and then more than a few IQ backs seem variable on AFD & DF bodies, plus Alpa (and I expect Arca/Cambo too btw) then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out where the problem probably lies ...

    If it were just Alpa fitting that was loose then it would be pretty obvious who needs to make a change. Since there are reports here of some being loose on Phase One cameras I think it's a bit damning on Phase One.

    Btw, I have a similar issue with my Leaf back on my AFD II/DF being slightly loose yet my P40+ fits like a glove on all of my gear, including Alpa.
    As some of you know, I run P65+ and Aptus 12 backs in my architectural photography business. The incredibly supportive Mrs.Siebel just added an IQ180 to my bag.
    One of the significant reasons for shooting with Alpa in the first place is the ability to shim the mount adapter so the sensor sits precisely where it should, not "within tolerances". The shorter the focal-length, the shallower depth-of-focus (as apposed to depth of field) becomes. The fully manual focus system also is a small factor in this chain-of-focus.
    Alpa, in recognising that backs from Phase and Leaf had slightly different measurements in the Mamiya645 mount, have for quite some time had 2 different adapter plates. The difference in dimension is such that it is impossible to fit my P65+ onto the Alpa ooo (Leaf M645) mount.
    Lets be clear about this - the fit of a Leaf M645 back on an Alpa oo M645 Phase mount is so sloppy as to render shimming pointless - the back wobbles.
    Enter the IQ180 - mounting it on my Alpa oo M645 adapter which works perfectly with my P65+ (fits without forcing, sits with no wobbles), leaves me with a back-to-adapter fit that is clearly loose. It wobbles.
    What is interesting is that the same IQ180 back, when fitted to my ooo adapter, which I had to get when I bought the Aptus 12 (which wobbles on the oo adapter), fits as snug as can be.
    The mount is a major component in the system that makes the Alpa the precision tool that it is.
    Firstly, Alpa users upgrading to IQ backs need to be aware of this. Very, very few will have the luxury of multiple backs (and theresore mount adapters)I do.
    Secondly, Phase need to confirm that the current IQ dimension will continue through the production life of this back and that this is not a "within manufacturing tolerances" issue. Given the precision required by the 5.2 micron generation sensors, this is doubly important. Also, we need to know that the IQ180 mount will be identical in dimension to the IQ160 and IQ140.
    Alpa and Phase probably need to have a quiet chat about how the P+ series users upgrading to IQ backs are handled. There IS an issue and the "manufacturing tolerances" argument is a weak one.
    Ultimately, the solution is a simple one - IQ180 backs need a ooo adapter from ALPA.
    I, for one, am absolutely delighted with both my back and my camera, so I'm now going to do the fun stuff - take pictures.
    Cheers.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Bryan,

    How do your Leaf & IQ backs fit on your DF bodies? Are these snug or loose as well?
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Bryan,

    How do your Leaf & IQ backs fit on your DF bodies? Are these snug or loose as well?
    DF bodies have a mechanism internally which offers tension along the mounting point. Therefore it's less likely that DF connection will be loose.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    My IQ180 is loose on my Alpa and on its own protective plate.
    Both rattle, with a fair bit of play.
    Thanks.
    Thanks all, especial Paul S, and Siebel, for the useful information.

    I'll repeat my OP, above, and say that my IQ rattles alarmingly even on its own protective cover plate. That is Phase on Phase. So its pretty clear where the issue lays. Surely a cover plate that locks down well for safe travel is a prerequisite? (My P65+ locks snugly to the new IQ cover plate, so the plate is not the issue)

    Yes my IQ is fine on the DF, but as Doug Petersconi says, that has a special locking mechanism. Phase clearly have changed the tolerances on this, or got a bad batch of mount adapters, falling outside of spec. This is not a huge deep-tech issue, but I think Phase needs to commission a new batch of tight lock pin brackets, and fix those that need fixing, asap.

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    Senior Member ddanois's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    I received my IQ180 two days ago and just had a chance to try it last night. The fit on my DF body is a bit more "snug" than with my P65+. That is to say that my P65+ always had a softer fit to the body than what I'm seeing on the IQ180.

    I like the firm and snug fit of the IQ on the DF but the fit to my Arca is entirely different. The P65+ fits "perfectly on mount but the IQ180 almost wouldn't mount. The IQ required significant pressure to complete the lock on the Arca Rm3Di so it appears that there is a difference in the mounts between the two backs.

    Hope this provides another point of reference.

    Derek

  10. #10
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Interesting enough that only Alpa seems to offer different mounts, and that since quite some time. As an owner I wondered all the time if the other manufacturers weren't aware of this issue?

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddanois View Post
    I received my IQ180 two days ago and just had a chance to try it last night. The fit on my DF body is a bit more "snug" than with my P65+. That is to say that my P65+ always had a softer fit to the body than what I'm seeing on the IQ180.

    I like the firm and snug fit of the IQ on the DF but the fit to my Arca is entirely different. The P65+ fits "perfectly on mount but the IQ180 almost wouldn't mount. The IQ required significant pressure to complete the lock on the Arca Rm3Di so it appears that there is a difference in the mounts between the two backs.

    Hope this provides another point of reference.

    Derek
    On all the DF's and 180's i tried in combination the fit was snug on the DF compared to my P40+. I do like that tight fit but the Alpa fit issue needs to be resolved it seems.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    "There is an indication on the plate itself to indicate which it is specified for. "00" is for Phase and "000" is for Leaf."

    Really? I can't find any such marks on my plate. I even took it apart to make sure they weren't inside. Any suggestions? (Other than Jack's that I buy an Arca.)

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Perhaps you have an older plate? Might be worth a check with your dealer. If not, I'm certain I can get you an Arca to demo
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    I take Alpa hand me downs . Hell i will take any tech cam hand me downs. I don't rate much anymore I ONLY bought a IQ 160. I'm never EVER going to hear the end of those extra 20 mpx.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I don't rate much anymore I ONLY bought a IQ 160. I'm never EVER going to hear the end of those extra 20 mpx.
    Guy, here's the new fashion statement for those of us not sporting IQ180s. I recommend this for use when going out in public:
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Thank you Graham , it could use a little color though. Maybe a color checker pattern . LOL

    Than we can be test targets for the big boys and girls. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    For what it's worth...

    When I moved from a P40 to a P65, the protector plate on the P65 moved around quite a bit. I tried the plate from the P40 on the P65 and it fit very snug. So the brand new protector plate from the P65 went back with the P40 which fit fine. The P65 does move around if pressured on my Cambo RS where the P40 did not. It also moves if pressured on my AFD as well. Haven't noticed any impacts on image quality. IQ180 on order so we'll see about how it fits.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Guy, here's the new fashion statement for those of us not sporting IQ180s. I recommend this for use when going out in public:
    Us S2 shooters have been wearing those for a while now.. but they have a red dot

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    On the subject of DF body / back snug fitting, it would be nice to be able to adjust my Aptus 65 to fit a little better than it does. That back has a very slight amount of movement compared to my P40+, and that's on both my DF & AFD II bodies. Is this something that can easily done vs a trip back to Leaf/MAC group or body to Phase One?

    Interesting to hear of even the P40+/P65+ fitting differences too. You'd kind of expect every back to fit absolutely tightly to the common reference Mamiya back mount. I just find these differences surprising considering the costs for this stuff.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I just find these differences surprising considering the costs for this stuff.
    I bet there are people at Phase One who are thinking the same thing.

  21. #21
    JLockard
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    I noticed my IQ180 fitting much tighter to the DF body than my P65+, in fact the first time I put it on the DF I tried several times as I thought something must not be lining up. Fit easier the second time around but still tighter than I remember the P65 fitting. On the other hand, I get no motion at all when attached to my Alpa. I checked again after reading this discussion to be sure. It has the "00" as described in Paul's reply and was used with my P65 originally.

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Ok, more weirdness. I'm the guy who had the loose-fitting P65 on the Alpa, which fits darn well on my DF645.

    Tonight I took home the dealer's demo IQ180, and it fits marvelously snug on my Alpa. I have the "00" Phase adapter. This IQ180 fit so snug on a DF that two of us wouldn't even force it on. Eventually one of the guys did get it on the DF. This is all backwards from what others have experienced except for JLockard above.

    Huh.

    BTW, anyone shooting with the Alpa sync adapter, make sure the firmware is updated. The original firmware could not figure out what the heck the Alpa sync adapter was doing. I couldn't record a single image. Updating the firmware solved it all.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    DF bodies have a mechanism internally which offers tension along the mounting point. Therefore it's less likely that DF connection will be loose.
    This appears to be true. My P45, P65+, IQ180 and Aptus 12 all fit well on the DF body. I borrowed a couple of friends P45+ and P40+ backs and they fit well on the DF also.
    Siebel
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Ok, more weirdness. I'm the guy who had the loose-fitting P65 on the Alpa, which fits darn well on my DF645.

    Tonight I took home the dealer's demo IQ180, and it fits marvelously snug on my Alpa. I have the "00" Phase adapter. This IQ180 fit so snug on a DF that two of us wouldn't even force it on. Eventually one of the guys did get it on the DF. This is all backwards from what others have experienced except for JLockard above.

    Dave
    Very interesting. So far, you are the only person I am reading reporting this, both here, and on LuLa. If I am understanding this correctly, you have anIQ180 that has the same dimension plate as the P65+. All the problems so far seem to be of loose mounting IQ180's on the oo adapter, not snug. All reports so far are that the IQ180 fits perfectly on the ooo (Leaf) adapter.
    This, raises the worrisome prospect that there are not one, but two different mount dimensions on the IQ180's. The solution was always going to be easier to find if the mounts were consistent. It's a little more confusing if there is variability from back to back, though it would be fair to say that the IQ180 you are talking about has no problem as it fits the mount that holds the earlier Phase One backs properly.
    I have been told by Alpa (I was at their Zurich office this week) that they are trying to find a less-expensive solution for Phase/Alpa users upgrading to IQ's, instead of having to buy a brand-new ooo adapter. It would appear from Dave's post that, happily, not everyone upgrading will have this problem.
    I can only hope that IF the problem is a manufacturing problem on the part of the parts supplier who makes the mounts for Phase, that this can be tightened up quickly.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    DF bodies have a mechanism internally which offers tension along the mounting point. Therefore it's less likely that DF connection will be loose.
    Maybe I'm missing something here but how the heck does that work? The locking hoops look pretty fixed to me, ditto the mount along the base. The only items that I can see that would add tension are the back present indicator pin (sprung) and the pins on the back which are also spring loaded. The 4 'pads' don't seem to have any spring loading that I can tell.

    Now I could see that the back itself could have some way of tightening the grip on the camera but surely that's just the locking mechanism.

    Am I missing something obvious here because I just don't see evidence of this. I'm not saying it isn't so but I'm intrigued to know how this works because I just can't see anything myself.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Member Paul David's Avatar
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    IQ 180 Fits perfectly on my Alpa

    I just received my IQ180 and nervously mounted it on my Alpa TC. The fit is perfect! Nice and snug but not too tight. Same with the P1DF body.

    The Alpa adapter is the 00 for the P65+ back. Apparently this isn't a problem with all the Iq180s.

    Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    My IQ180 is loose on my Alpa and on its own protective plate.
    Both rattle, with a fair bit of play.

    I read someone else having a similar issue, and wondered what the fix was - on Phase's part, or on Alpa's? I can't find that thread now. My previous Phase back was fine.

    Thanks.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Alpa China exchanged my oo plate for a OOO plate and that fits perfectly

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    I have both an Alpa and an Arca plate here. With the IQ180 the Arca is perfectly fine and Alpa I can move it a teeny bit but I would not call it loose. It is a 00 plate.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    I repeat that my IQ180 is loose on its own protective plate.

    This has nothing to do with Alpa, Arca, DF bodies or whatever. It is Phase back on Phase plate, and a poor fit.

    They obviously changed something in the IQ mount, but are reluctant to admit to it.

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    Member Paul David's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    I repeat that my IQ180 is loose on its own protective plate.

    This has nothing to do with Alpa, Arca, DF bodies or whatever. It is Phase back on Phase plate, and a poor fit.

    They obviously changed something in the IQ mount, but are reluctant to admit to it.
    That is one reason it is important to have a dealer who will check out the back before sending it out. Given the problems some (hopefully a small percentage of those receiving the backs) have reported, Dave Gallagher at Capture Integration thoroughly checked out my back and updated the firmware before sending it out. He would have noticed a loose plate and never have sent it out.

    And I must say, using the back on the Alpa is WONDERFUL!!! I can't wait to get live view, but even now it's a pure joy to use.

    Paul

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    I repeat that my IQ180 is loose on its own protective plate.

    This has nothing to do with Alpa, Arca, DF bodies or whatever. It is Phase back on Phase plate, and a poor fit.

    They obviously changed something in the IQ mount, but are reluctant to admit to it.
    What has your dealer said about the problem?
    Don Libby
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    My Phase plate on the IQ is definitely looser than before.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    What has your dealer said about the problem?
    They sent me the Phase quote about Alpa, and ignored the fact that it is their own plate that is loose, as well.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Enter the IQ180 - mounting it on my Alpa oo M645 adapter which works perfectly with my P65+ (fits without forcing, sits with no wobbles), leaves me with a back-to-adapter fit that is clearly loose. It wobbles.
    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    My IQ180 is loose on my Alpa and on its own protective plate.
    Both rattle, with a fair bit of play.
    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    It seems to me that if people with existing P series backs have them fitting perfectly firmly on their Mamiya/Phase One 645AFD I/II/III/DF bodies, Alpas, Arcas, Cambo, etc, and then more than a few IQ backs seem variable on AFD & DF bodies, plus Alpa (and I expect Arca/Cambo too btw) then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out where the problem probably lies ...
    It must be 100% clear to everyone that Phase have changed something in the mounting mechanism for the IQ series, and it is not working out perfectly.

    They need to address this, rather than blaming others for their issues.
    IQ backs seem to lock well to a DF, but not to their own cover plates, or to anything else that used to work fine with the P+ series.

    The ball is in their court.
    Last edited by narikin; 12th June 2011 at 07:01.

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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    I repeat that my IQ180 is loose on its own protective plate.This has nothing to do with Alpa, Arca, DF bodies or whatever. It is Phase back on Phase plate, and a poor fit.
    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    I'll repeat my OP, above, and say that my IQ rattles alarmingly even on its own protective cover plate. That is Phase on Phase. So its pretty clear where the issue lays. Surely a cover plate that locks down well for safe travel is a prerequisite? (My P65+ locks snugly to the new IQ cover plate, so the plate is not the issue)
    Yes for sure either your IQ plate or your IQ is not 100% right here. As you say the protective plate must be tight for it to fulfill it's purpose and protect your back, which is very important!

    Regardless of what needs to be done we'll do whatever we can to make sure you have a kit you're satisfied with. I've just emailed you with one possible solution (which you yourself smartly proposed). If that route doesn't work out we'll figure something else out. All your Phase gear will (within any reasonable expectation) perfectly fit the rest of your Phase gear.

    Note: an open apology to you that it's taken a week to fully act on this. With travel to St. Louis, Atlanta, and Detroit this week, and with my coworker getting very sick during our travel it was a fairly hard week to keep up. We strive to have anything like this resolved the same or next day, so this is pretty unusual.

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 12th June 2011 at 09:41.

  36. #36
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Update: My loose IQ180 was indeed fixed by changing to a 000 Alpa 'Leaf 645' plate. It now locks down perfectly.

    The rattling Phase Cover Plate, still slaps away from side to side on my $40,000 back in supposed locked safe transport mode. Dreadful.

    Thank You Alpa for providing a fix.
    No Thank You to Phase from messing it up and denying it.

  37. #37
    Optechs Digital
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    As a further update:

    Most all of our recent IQ 180 shipments have had a very good and snug fit with the proper Alpa 00 plate. All of the loose fit backs so far have been perfectly fixed the 000 (leaf fit plate).

    The first IQ 160 received this morning looks like it will require the alternate 000 leaf plate also. So it appears there is still some variation, but also a good though in some cases not a free solution for Alpa users...

    Best ,
    Paul

  38. #38
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optechs Digital View Post
    As a further update:

    Most all of our recent IQ 180 shipments have had a very good and snug fit with the proper Alpa 00 plate.
    Paul
    I just received my IQ180 from Paul on Tuesday, and can confirm it fits perfectly on my Alpa 00 plate as well as my DF.
    wayne
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  39. #39
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    Re: IQ180 loose on Alpa?

    My IQ180 fits snugly on the DF and on my Arca plate. The Alpa fit is looser, but not terrible. Will decide what to do about that once I make some more tests.

    Interestingly, my previous H3D50 back fit snugly on the H3D and on my Alpa Hasselblad adapter. The Arca fit was too tight on my first adapter and too loose on the replacement.

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