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Thread: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

  1. #1
    Gerhard
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    Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Dear forum,

    my first post here but I have been a passive reader since several years.

    My main business is architecture photography and I own a quite complete set of Alpa Max, Rodie lenses, 645DF and an IQ180.

    Now my very urgent problem and I hope to get help from the forum. Since 5 days I stay at Iceland (2 weeks) with my 4x4 recreation van. The island is a winter-dream - my 16th journey to Iceland. Everything is fine, but ....

    The IQ180 fails after several minutes when I expose it to temperatures below -4 deg. Celsius. Then the battery icon on the back is blinking and shows an empty battery. But I have 7 fully charges P1 batteries, three Haenel chargers and one Canon CH910 charger. The batteries are definitively full.

    My question to IQ180 users: did your back work at temperatures below zero? Does the darkframe-subtraction work at temperatures below zero? When making longer exposuers the darkframe is made round about only every 10th shot.

    And the 2nd question: Do you have any idea how to solve the battery-problem?

    In the last days the temperatures were between -4 and -10 deg.

    Thanks a lot in advance.

    Best,

    Gerhard

    www.kubetschek.de

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Here are a few thoughts. Your issue is almost surely the amount of power able to be drawn from such a battery as it gets very cold. The IQ was tested in extreme environments during R+D but I've not personally had a chance to test it in such cold weather as I live in Miami. So these comments are based on my knowledge of the system and with extensive experience in cold environments with previous backs.

    First: check your firmware. If you are not at 1.47 you should update your firmware as power management has been an area of focus on firmware development.

    Second: make sure you're using only batteries with at least 2500mAh. Phase One's provided batteries.

    Third: The IQ chassis is built specifically to dissipate heat from the sensor and battery into the chassis to be dissipated into the air. You may find improved internal battery performance by thermally insulating the back as the heat generated by the back will remain in the back and keep the battery warm. Some fabric wrapped around the outside might do the trick. Perhaps hand warmers in the extreme?

    Fourth: you can also use firewire to power the back. The back must still have a battery inserted but the power will be coming from the firewire channel. The device providing such power can be kept inside your jacket to keep it from getting cold. It will also CHARGE the battery inserted in the back so that if and when you have to unplug the FW power it could continue to run off the internal battery. Some of the Hassy members of the forum (or searching threads about them) should give you some insight on devices that can be used for firewire power since most (or all depending on whether the battery accessory for the H4D-60 has shipped yet) Hasselblad backs require external power when on a tech camera.

    Fifth: try changing your back to zero latency. This actually draws more from the battery, but will also keep the sensor on and active which will generate heat and maybe keep the battery warmer. This is only a theory, since I am in Miami I cannot test it, but since it's free and fast/easy for you to try I thought I'd mention it.

    Sixth: Dark frames are captured by the back "as needed" based on a variety of variables. If you shoot multiple frames at the same metered shutter speed (e.g. 1/8th of a second) only the first frame will be followed by a dark frame.

    Please keep us up to date on your progress.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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  3. #3
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Doug, thank you very much for your quick and very valuable input.

    - Yes, FW 1.47 as of September 19th is installed.

    - All Batteries are P1 2500 mAh.

    - Powering the IQ180 via FireWire is not possible because it would be too complicated to take a notebook with me when making hikes to locations. BTW my notebook has a 4pin FireWire only.

    - Switching the back to zero latency is a great idea. I will test it tomorrow and let you know.

    - Re. darkframes: If I shoot a panorama with 15 shots with 10s each: Do you think it is okay when the IQ only makes a darkframe on shot 3 and 12?

    - According to Phase One Germany the back is designed to operate until -10 Deg. So my application is within the manufacturer's limit.

    It's no fun to be at perfect locations with excellent light conditions and you cannot take a picture.

    Best regards,

    Gerhard

  4. #4
    Super Duper
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I've been in the Jackson Hole area for 2-months and for the last couple weeks or so have been shooting in temps as low as -5F (-20 Celsius) with wind chills as low as -15 degrees (-26 Celsius). We've done several sunrise shoots in this range as well as slightly warmer.

    While I have a P65+ and not a IQ back I've found the battery life very good in these circumstances. I always begin the day with a fresh battery and have 2-more stuffed away in an inside pocket. I've also worked for several hours outside at one stretch without much difficulty. Actually I gave up first...

    Don
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  5. #5
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    In the past I didn't have problems with the P45+ or P65+ in even colder conditions compared to the temperatures I have now.

    Fortunately I took a P45+ as a backup with me. This is working properly and shows that the batteries are fully charged.

    It would be a real show stopper if all IQ backs quit working at 4 below zero.

    Gerhard


    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I've been in the Jackson Hole area for 2-months and for the last couple weeks or so have been shooting in temps as low as -5F (-20 Celsius) with wind chills as low as -15 degrees (-26 Celsius). We've done several sunrise shoots in this range as well as slightly warmer.

    While I have a P65+ and not a IQ back I've found the battery life very good in these circumstances. I always begin the day with a fresh battery and have 2-more stuffed away in an inside pocket. I've also worked for several hours outside at one stretch without much difficulty. Actually I gave up first...

    Don

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Hi,
    I used my IQ180 last week in Georgia and the weather was freezing around -3 to -4 C.
    I had 3 fully charged batteries with me and I shooted all day till sunset and my batteries were just finished at the end.
    Only problem I had was with the live view.When I was shooting outside,the live view broke down totally.There was no or partial view on the screen.However,I had no problem with the live view while shooting interiors where it was around 0 -2 celsius.
    Ziya

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    - Re. darkframes: If I shoot a panorama with 15 shots with 10s each: Do you think it is okay when the IQ only makes a darkframe on shot 3 and 12?
    If everything is operating normally then I would not be concerned by whether the back does or does not think it needs to do a dark frame.

    Regarding Firewire I was talking about using a device like the Big Wave Power unit that some of the Hasselblad dealers have historically sold to help their customers who need external power in the field. I was not referring to bringing your laptop into the field in -10C weather :-).

    I'd get in touch with your dealer so they can start a support case with Phase One to see if ya'll can work out any additional methods/solutions/approaches/information etc.

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    probably worth trying a Quantum battery (or something similar) with a Leaf DC-to-FW800 adapter
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I have shot the IQ180 in sub-zero (celsius) with no problems. I kept the batteries in an inside coat pocket and they drained a little more quickly but not bad. I do shoot zero latency. My P65+ performed well in -30C for a few hours, I usually petered out before my pack of batteries.

    Sounds like yours has a unique problem that P1 should check. At that temp things should be fine.

  10. #10
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Excellent idea. Ten years ago I had a Quantum Battery for my Kodak DCS760. I will order the adapter when I'm back. Thanks Yair.

    Gerhard


    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    probably worth trying a Quantum battery (or something similar) with a Leaf DC-to-FW800 adapter

  11. #11
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Thank you, Doug!

    Setting the back to zero latency was an excellent advice. At -5 deg. the back is operating now for half an hour. Afterwards it is dead and I have to warm it up in the car.

    At -10 deg. the time of use has gained, too. I cannot scientificly describe the difference but I was glad to use the back at this temperature for several shots now.

    I hope that my IQ180 is "ill" and needs service. It would be a very heavy limitation if this behavior world be normal. The P65+ which I traded in did not have any problems in cold conditions.

    BTW.: Iceland in winter is an absolutely unique experience.

    Best,
    Gerhard

    PS.
    How much is the fee for one year of your 24/7 hotline-service? ;-)))

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    fyi:

    the quantum battery I have used with my hasselblad H 39 back, and the firewire adapter was the Turbo 3, which will output low voltage to operate digital backs as well as the flash higher voltage, (the Turbo SC does not work as it only puts out high voltage for the flash)

    I also tried the Bigwave power adapter which outputs via firewire and would power the H39 back, but not as much amp-hours. convenient though.

  13. #13
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Thank, Jim, I will check out the options.

    Gerhard


    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    fyi:

    the quantum battery I have used with my hasselblad H 39 back, and the firewire adapter was the Turbo 3, which will output low voltage to operate digital backs as well as the flash higher voltage, (the Turbo SC does not work as it only puts out high voltage for the flash)

    I also tried the Bigwave power adapter which outputs via firewire and would power the H39 back, but not as much amp-hours. convenient though.

  14. #14
    rafaelrojasphoto
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Hello Gerhard,
    I found here a guy using a IQ180 on a ski slope in Sweden, at -11 degrees with no apparent problem...http://photography-thedarkart.blogsp...one-iq180.html

    I guess it will be important to contact P1 to see what is going on with your back?

    All the best chasing the icelandic light Gerhard!! ;-)

    regards,
    rafael

  15. #15
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Hi Rafael,

    I have read the link and think, that this shooting at -11 degrees must have been a very quick one. Otherwise the model would have developed a blue cast in the face ;-)

    I will let you know what PhaseOne say when they have my IQ180 in the factory.

    in the meantime here in Iceland the temperature has raised quickly. From 10 below to plus 2 in one night. The roads here could work as an excellent training parcours for long distance ice-skaters. But I drive spikes-tires.

    At temperatures around the freezing point the digital back works perfectly now.

    Best,

    Gerhard



    Quote Originally Posted by rafaelrojasphoto View Post
    Hello Gerhard,
    I found here a guy using a IQ180 on a ski slope in Sweden, at -11 degrees with no apparent problem...http://photography-thedarkart.blogsp...one-iq180.html

    I guess it will be important to contact P1 to see what is going on with your back?

    All the best chasing the icelandic light Gerhard!! ;-)

    regards,
    rafael

  16. #16
    rafaelrojasphoto
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Nice to hear. Yes please, let me know what is the conclusion of your back.
    Northern Finland in February is not going to be around freezing point exactly...

    Meanwhile, maybe you saw this video where they tested the IQ back by having it at -70°C for a while?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytrsd...layer_embedded

    So, theoretically, it should work at -14, isnt it? LOL

    Take care mate and I hope you came with terrific images from Iceland,

    rafael

  17. #17
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I just had look at this video. At -80 degrees the IQ180 shows exactly the same problem like my IQ180 at -4 degrees: The battery icon is blinking! Have a look at the video.

    Unfortunately with a blinking battery icon you cannot make a single exposure.

    Nevertheless: a nice video ;-)

    Best,

    Gerhard



    Quote Originally Posted by rafaelrojasphoto View Post
    Nice to hear. Yes please, let me know what is the conclusion of your back.
    Northern Finland in February is not going to be around freezing point exactly...

    Meanwhile, maybe you saw this video where they tested the IQ back by having it at -70°C for a while?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytrsd...layer_embedded

    So, theoretically, it should work at -14, isnt it? LOL

    Take care mate and I hope you came with terrific images from Iceland,

    rafael

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    Dear forum,

    The IQ180 fails after several minutes when I expose it to temperatures below -4 deg. Celsius.
    Gerhard,
    Something isn't right. I am not sure what you mean by several minutes, but after reading your post I went out for a 45 min walk with my dogs. -7 deg C, Alpa with an IQ180 in my hand (no camera bag to keep it warm).

    I took 17 images (just casual stuff to test it). When I came back the battery was one notch below full. My hand was cold from carrying a chunk of metal, but the IQ180 was fine. Standard-issue P1 battery.

    Dave

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    Thank you, Doug!

    Setting the back to zero latency was an excellent advice. At -5 deg. the back is operating now for half an hour. Afterwards it is dead and I have to warm it up in the car.

    At -10 deg. the time of use has gained, too. I cannot scientificly describe the difference but I was glad to use the back at this temperature for several shots now.

    I hope that my IQ180 is "ill" and needs service. It would be a very heavy limitation if this behavior world be normal. The P65+ which I traded in did not have any problems in cold conditions.

    BTW.: Iceland in winter is an absolutely unique experience.

    Best,
    Gerhard

    PS.
    How much is the fee for one year of your 24/7 hotline-service? ;-)))
    Please do keep us all up to date on the results of your work with your dealer and Phase One. This is the fist "Winter of the IQ180" and lab testing and R+D is one thing. Shooting in the field is another. Knowing whether Phase ends up deeming your system to be performing out of spec or not is important information for all.

    While several of our customers have reported back with good-to-great experiences shooting in cold weather we (Capture Integration) don't have many data points for <-10C, and we try hard to only comment on things we have real world experience with.


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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Any update?

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Any update?
    Doug,

    I shot extensively with my IQ180 in the Swiss Alps in Dec2010/Jan2011. Outdoor temps on most of my morning walks were typically -6 to -2degC, but on one particular morning it was -17C when I got off the gondola at the top of one mountain, and -12C when I took the ride down 3 hours later.
    I usually work with my IQ180 on normal latency on the Alpa STC, but in these cold conditions, I chose to use it on zero latency. My thinking was that this would generate a little heat and thus avoid any issues with extreme cold. I also carry my spare batteries in the inside pocket of my jacket so they stay moderately warm.
    The back was switched off when I was legging it between shooting locations, but I would turn it on as soon as I arrived at a place where I thought there might be a shot to be had. Thus, by the time I had set up my tripod and composed my image, the camera was cold but not freezing. This was a year ago and Liveview was not yet available. I'd imagine that simply using liveview would bring sensor temp up enough to avoid any issues.
    On several occasions, I had the sensor exposed briefly whilst changing lenses. No problems here apart from bloody cold fingers!
    I did note a drop in battery life, at a guess in the region of 20% down from my normal expectations, but I put this down to the batteries being below their best at these temps. I have 6 batteries but never got through more than 2 fully charged batteries, though I don't shoot a lot of frames when I'm shooting landscapes, perhaps 60 frames or so each walk.
    My files themselves were just as accurate and clean as I would expect at normal temps, even when shooting 15-30sec exposures at low ISO with ND grads etc.
    I would love to hear how others are going this winter with the updated firmware and liveview. Unfortunately I am in Dubai this winter where temps don't get very cold at all. I'd rather be with family in Switzerland and taking daily hikes in the snow, but clients are keeping me busy here.
    As an aside, I took the IQ180 and Alpa to Afghanistan where is was cool and very, very dusty and as expected, all worked perfectly. It will be interesting to hear where members are travelling with their backs and what conditions they are shooting in. I will be shooting a lot in Malaysia and Indonesia in 2012, so I'll report on high-humidity usage as well.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    That's great to hear as an additional data point. Though I was hoping specifically for an update from the OP.

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Doug,

    I shot extensively with my IQ180 in the Swiss Alps in Dec2010/Jan2011.
    I can't help but wonder if this is a misprint or if you actually did have a production IQ180 back before it had been announced in January 2011?

  24. #24
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    That's great to hear as an additional data point. Though I was hoping specifically for an update from the OP.
    Okay, here is my update:

    I'm back from Iceland since one week. The problem persisted all the time. My first action here in Germany was to buy an upgrade for the backup DB which I took with me on that trip: P45+ => P65+. In my opinion the difference in image quality between the P45+ and the IQ180 was too big for a good backup. And then there is still the crop-factor…

    (BTW: In the course of the last year I did not make a lot of very long exposures with the P45+. Therefore losing this P45+ advantage will not be a problem for me.)

    Upon arrival of the P65+ I will send out my IQ180 for check&repair to PhaseOne Denmark. After getting it back I will make tests and give the forum an update.

    The posting of Siebel sounds extremely promising.

    My next trip to Iceland will be very soon: in February. In this season it can be quite cold in Iceland - colder than -10 centigrade. Another reason for taking a really good backup with me.

    Gerhard

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I had my 180 out in -12C yesterday. No problems at all.
    Bill

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    Upon arrival of the P65+ I will send out my IQ180 for check&repair to PhaseOne Denmark. After getting it back I will make tests and give the forum an update.
    Please do! We're starting to get more field reports from our users on IQ use in extreme cold and yours is the only I've seen that was strongly negative. Most have been strongly positive (i.e. worked like a champ, no glitches at all, moderately lower battery life offset by simply keeping batteries warm in a pocket) and a few have been mostly positive (i.e. one or two lockups/glitches that may or may not have been weather related but otherwise worked great).

    Logically this means one of four things:
    - your specific equipment (back, batteries, lens, body) is in someway defective
    - your specific workflow/usage is different (frequency of LCD use, use of specific features, shutter speeds used, ISOs used)
    - your specific environment (humidity, altitude, cold, wind) is in someway more challenging
    - the number of positive reports we've received is an insufficient sample size or issues from others have been under-reported

    My bet is Door #1, but all three are possibilities and your report can help settle it for sure!

    Please update the forum either way when you find out!

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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  27. #27
    macz
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Please do! We're starting to get more field reports from our users on IQ use in extreme cold and yours is the only I've seen that was strongly negative. Most have been strongly positive (i.e. worked like a champ, no glitches at all, moderately lower battery life offset by simply keeping batteries warm in a pocket) and a few have been mostly positive (i.e. one or two lockups/glitches that may or may not have been weather related but otherwise worked great).

    Logically this means one of four things:
    - your specific equipment (back, batteries, lens, body) is in someway defective
    - your specific workflow/usage is different (frequency of LCD use, use of specific features, shutter speeds used, ISOs used)
    - your specific environment (humidity, altitude, cold, wind) is in someway more challenging
    - the number of positive reports we've received is an insufficient sample size or issues from others have been under-reported

    My bet is Door #1, but all three are possibilities and your report can help settle it for sure!

    Please update the forum either way when you find out!

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Hi to all

    I just came home from a trip in the Swiss Mountains capturing at -15 to -20 °C with the IQ180 on the Alpa. I had 10 batteries fully charged and was able to capture 70 images - then finished since all of the batteries were just blinking on the back (they have been kept warm in the meantime). Back home putting them into the charger they showed 80 % charge...

    So Gerhard is not alone and I just got the identical information from a friend experiencing this today with his IQ180.

    Always the same behavior: put a new battery in the (cold) back - first it shows something like 50 % battery, then you make one exposure: 20 %, second or even third exposure and the back keeps blinking...

    I am glad I did not take et the IQ180 to Norway last February and used the P65+ instead for capturing Northern lights...

    It would be great if the material would be defective - since in this case the solution would be close. If it is a problem of the system (IQ180) we may wait until next winter - or for better batteries!

    Btw I am using firmware 2.01.

    Look forward to better news.

    Markus

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Now back home in Finland, from Kenya.

    As we have now winter and usually around -10C to -30C I'll
    do some shooting with my IQ180. We also have sometimes
    more than -40C. For us this is NORMAL winter weather.

    For P65+ I've had no problems. I'll report how the new back
    works.

    Kirmo

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    We have had virtually no cold weather in Ontario this winter - and no snow, so I haven't been shooting with the IQ180. But the forecast is for -15ºC by the end of this week and I'll go out for a full day in the cold and see what happens. Last time I had no problem in -12ºC but it was only for a few hours.

    (Hope you had a good trip to Kenya, Kirmo!)

    Bill

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Bill, yes, we had great time. Also got the LS 55 and 110 two days before we started our trip. The LS 110 was very handy when shooting at Maasai and Samburu villages. Also some wild life with IQ.

    Some warmer weather, only -5C now. For week end back to normal.

    I've charged the batteries and will try to do some kind of testing then.

    Anyone seen LS 240 or the wide angle tilt-shift lenses?

    Kirmo

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I have the 240 LS ordered - I was told February for delivery but I have my doubts!

    The LS 55 is my favourite lens.

    I loved Samburu!

    Best,
    Bill

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirmo View Post
    Anyone seen LS 240 or the wide angle tilt-shift lenses?
    Schneider has said privately they are going to make one and I'm the project is well under way (lens development takes a long time from first conception to final shipment), but the lens has not even been announced, let alone shown, let alone shipped, let alone tested.

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I shot P1 DF with IQ 180 5 days ago when the temperature was 5 degrees F with wind chill. It was very cold.
    The batteries were covered with wrapped cloth in the backpack.
    Five out of 6 lithium batteries(for IQ back) which were fully charged were dead.
    When I came home I checked and all batteries were fully charged again.
    Just want to share this information.

    Pramote

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    I have the 240 LS ordered - I was told February for delivery but I have my doubts!
    Told by whom? When?

    The last official word I have from Phase One places delivery in the June-ish time-frame.


    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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  35. #35
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    That is exactly my observation: Under cold conditions the IQ180 is mis-interpreting the battery voltage. The battery voltage itself is absolutely fine. I confirmed this by inserting the same, cold battery into a P45+, a P65+ or a battery charger.

    By the way: My IQ180 is for repair in the factory for nearly 4 weeks now and I hope to get it back soon.

    ... and I hope that it will be working in cold conditions after the repair.

    Best,
    Gerhard




    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I shot P1 DF with IQ 180 5 days ago when the temperature was 5 degrees F with wind chill. It was very cold.
    The batteries were covered with wrapped cloth in the backpack.
    Five out of 6 lithium batteries(for IQ back) which were fully charged were dead.
    When I came home I checked and all batteries were fully charged again.
    Just want to share this information.

    Pramote

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    That is exactly my observation: Under cold conditions the IQ180 is mis-interpreting the battery voltage. The battery voltage itself is absolutely fine. I confirmed this by inserting the same, cold battery into a P45+, a P65+ or a battery charger.

    By the way: My IQ180 is for repair in the factory for nearly 4 weeks now and I hope to get it back soon.

    ... and I hope that it will be working in cold conditions after the repair.

    Best,
    Gerhard
    Hi Gerhard,

    Please let me know how it turns out.

    Regards,
    Pramote

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    [QUOTE=dougpetersonci;388176]Told by whom? When?

    The last official word I have from Phase One places delivery in the June-ish time-frame.


    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    B3K Digital in Toronto, but this was way back on October 11th when the price was released and I put down a deposit. I suspect Feb was a guesstimate on their part.

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    That is exactly my observation: Under cold conditions the IQ180 is mis-interpreting the battery voltage. The battery voltage itself is absolutely fine. I confirmed this by inserting the same, cold battery into a P45+, a P65+ or a battery charger.

    By the way: My IQ180 is for repair in the factory for nearly 4 weeks now and I hope to get it back soon.

    ... and I hope that it will be working in cold conditions after the repair.

    Best,
    Gerhard
    I thought all was fine with mine until last Friday I was out. It was a bit windy and cold. Same thing with mine. All the batteries that were fresh showed dead on the IQ180.

    Time for a call to my dealer.

    Dave

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Test results after very simple test.

    DF + IQ180 + 55LS + V-grip + tripod.
    Batteries 100% charged.

    Temperature -27C, camera outside on tripod. The camera
    stays on same place outside all the time.

    9:20 Turned camera + back on
    Took 3 pictures
    Turned camera + back off

    9:35 Turned camera + back on
    Took 3 pictures
    Turned camera + back off

    9:50 Turned camera + back on
    Took 3 pictures
    Turned camera + back off

    Back shows battery is almost dead.

    I take the camera inside.
    Check battery of V-grip in charger = 100%
    Check battery of IQ180 back = 80%

    So same behaviour as others have found out.

    I've reported my dealer and he informs Phase One.


    Kirmo

    ps. Later today the weather will warm up again.
    Yesterday was too warm to make the test, only -15C.

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I'm finding something similar with my IQ180 and tech cam. In Japan at the moment, ambient temperature is about 0–7 degrees Celsius (so not as cold as what others are experiencing).

    My four batteries all start out fully charged, and a few different scenarios consistently occur:

    1. I get only a few shots before the low battery indicator starts blinking. Sometimes ejecting the battery and reinserting it seems to work. If not, the charger later shows the battery to be 75%–80% full.

    2. The back tells me "insufficient storage", despite the CF card not being full. Rebooting the back or (most commonly) swapping the battery seems to solve the problem. Again, this issue seems linked to the battery because at the same time the battery indicator will drop suddenly from full/near full to half/quarter full. Battery charger will later show at least 50%–80% charge left in the battery.

    3. Other times, no problems. I will get a good hour or two of shooting on a single battery, even with Live View. (NB. I am not very efficient with my battery use, I tend to leave the back turned on most of the time as I am constantly shooting or composing using Live View).

    There doesn't seem to be any consistency between the (non-)performance of each battery. Any or all of them could be problematic on a given day.

    Does this sound familiar to anyone?

  41. #41
    Gerhard
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Whow, that's pretty cold. I would *never* complain if my IQ180 would fail at -27°C! But I do expect the DB working properly at -15°C.

    The loaner IQ180, which I received one month ago, shows exactly the same problem. In my initial post I reported the problems with my IQ180 starting below -4°C. The loaner's problems are starting at round about -8°C. Today I should get back my own IQ180.

    Gerhard


    Quote Originally Posted by Kirmo View Post
    .....
    Temperature -27C, camera outside on tripod. The camera
    stays on same place outside all the time.
    ....
    Yesterday was too warm to make the test, only -15C.

  42. #42
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Guys, I'm just taking a deep breath and try to calm down.

    First of all I want to state that I am a long term Phase One customer and - in my opinion - a very loyal one. In the last years I bought a P45, 2x P45+, a P65+ and an IQ180. On top of that I upgraded my P45+ to another P65+ as a backup for cold conditions only recently. I do actually own an arsenal of 4 Schneider LS-lenses, 4 Phase One lenses and some older Mamiya glass.

    Overall I am very convinced of the Phase One system and it's quality. I have invested in the right systems and would do it again. Conclusion: I want to clarify I that have absolutely no intent to complain about Phase One in general. However....

    After reading this thread it seems quite obvious that there is a general problem with the cold resistance of the IQ180. Under cold conditions the IQ180 misinterprets a fully charged battery as empty and no shots are possible - rightaway or after a very short time.

    Today I have talked to Phase One Germany again. They asked me to thoroughly read the specifications: The IQ180 is rated for operation no lower than 0°C. And this specification is met.

    I replied that in my opinion there is a general fault with the cold resistance of the IQ180 and that they should work for a fix. When eg Mercedes recognizes a problem with one of their cars they either initiate a recall immediately or they do a "silent fix" and change the problematic part when the car is in the garage the next time.

    After this discussion I had a look at Phase One's press release for the IQ series. (www. phaseone.com -> News and Press -> Press Releases):

    "Phase One announces IQ series digital camera backs - Copenhagen, January 24, 2011

    [...]
    Reliability and Service
    Pro Photographers can rely on Phase One IQ digital backs to get their jobs done. Their highly durable build quality is designed and tested to work in the toughest environments, including extreme heat, cold and humidity. All Phase One products represent long-term investment value with superior service. For professionals, this protection is priceless, especially when shooting in unfamiliar situations and locations around the world."

    That has exactly been my experience in the past for my P45+ and the P65+: They did work under tough conditions at -25°C without any problems. I was a "happy camper" with this system.

    Phase, please don’t let us alone with the IQ180 problem in cold conditions and work for a fix. The whole community of professional users will expect this and will show their gratitude by staying loyal users in the future; something I am sure PhaseOne will be interested in.....

    Gerhard

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    Today I have talked to Phase One Germany again. They asked me to thoroughly read the specifications: The IQ180 is rated for operation no lower than 0°C. And this specification is met.
    It doesn't make a great deal of difference but in the current version of "IQ180-datasheet-0516-US.pdf" it clearly says:

    Operating conditions
    Temperature -10 to 50C (14 to 122F)
    Humidity 15 to 80% RH (non-condensing)

    (IQ180 digital back - full frame sensor and sensor plus technology)

    Chris

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    When P1 posts videos like this, they're sorta setting an expectation.

    You'll notice however that the battery wasn't frozen. I would suggest putting the battery in a warm pocket or somewhere close to the body while not shooting.

  45. #45
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I'm going to do a test tonight. Forecast is for -6 c. Set the camera and IQ180 out all night with a battery in it. In the morning I fully expect it to be dead. Then I will swap out a warm, 100% charged battery and see what it says. Back will be cold, battery warm.

    I'll let you know in about 8 hours. And no, I'm not telling you where I live!

    Dave

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I'll let you know in about 8 hours. And no, I'm not telling you where I live!

    Dave
    I wonder how much of Northeast Ohio I can cover in 8 hours?

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I wonder how much of Northeast Ohio I can cover in 8 hours?
    Not enough!

    Ok, so it didn't get as cold as predicted: -4c. But the test was interesting none the less.
    11:00pm camera outside with 100% battery installed
    5:30am turn on (6.5hrs); battery indicator blinking empty
    Swap out for room temp battery (checked in charger @ 100%): Reads ~30%
    Bring both batteries inside and place in charger. Cold one reads 30%, fresh one reads 100%.

    All batteries are P1 batteries. Charger is P1 dual charger.

    So we all know cold batteries don't work well. But at least compared to the charger, the back underestimates power by 30-50% when the back is cold. I think that explains why when batteries are a bit cold and the back is really cold, everything reads dead.

    Dave

    PS: Like Gerhard I'm not by any means trying to bash the back and/or Phase. I love the back. I view this as a quirk that hopefully will get investigated. My dealer is actively looking into it. I'm a happy customer.
    PPS: The cardinal that made his nest on our porch has confirmed that I'm really stupid and strange.
    Last edited by dchew; 11th February 2012 at 03:33. Reason: Added PS

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    This is slightly OT, but still P1 battery-related, so I thought I'd post here instead of starting a new thread ...

    I have just discovered that Manfrotto's Nano 1 pouch is a very convenient way of carrying or storing P1 batteries: it EXACTLY fits four P1 batteries. Also has a belt loop, if that suits your fashion sense/working style. Available in black, khaki or white.

    Nano I Camera Pouch Cord - Point And Shoot | Manfrotto

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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I can report that battery metering and general performance in sub-zero temps is being worked on at Phase One's Denmark Headquarters for improvement via firmware sooner than later. I cannot report more details than that, but will update the forum when more detail is available.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Problem: IQ180 below -4 deg. Celsius

    I can only propose that Users and Phase One also take a look at the chargers and the battery control. The Hähnel chargers are faulty ! They age and also as much it is my understanding they only measure voltage not power from the batteries.
    So when you charge a battery and it reaches the proposed nominal voltage of 7,2 volts or more (which can be when the cells are new) the charger indicates this a full charge.
    Professional chargers do differently. They cycle the batteries and measure voltage and Power in mHa. This is what pro chargers (e.g. Anton Bauer) in the film industry do. This is also what our 4 Slot charger which is made by Dolgin in the US does- we sell these in Europe. Since I use it I have found that the status of some of my batteries which show "full" in other chargers , can be voltage reached but only 20 % of power available. If you take out such a battery into the cold and use it with a heavy sucker like the IQ180 (which certainly needs more power than any Phase Back before) you will have exactly the effects as described. And it does not make a difference if the battery is new. The cells are made with tolerances obviously and there are good ones and bad ones. You can train bad ones with electronically controlled decharge and recharge a bit, but they never reach capacity of the best which work just great out of the box.

    So again (I posted this maybe half a year ago for the first time and nobody wants to believe it ) I ask - who thinks he can buy a 35k € device and use it reliable with a toy charger for under 100 € ? No Energy - no usage ...........
    And if Phase sells the batteries for a higher price as original part, they need
    to check the capacity and approve they battery is ok for usage with the IQ180 too. The pricetag at Phase for a battery is around 65 € if I remember right, the same batteries on Ebay go untested and with no guarantee from china for 10 €. And from my experience there is about every 4.or 5. faulty and the functioning ones do have varying power from 800mHa up to 1800 mHa (none of the batteries that I tested and measured so far had over 2000 mHa as printed on the item) So sorry for my criticism, but it needs to be expected, that there is a verification of the specs for such a price raise.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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