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Thread: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

  1. #101
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Which zooms are you coming from? Frankly, the current latest Nikon zooms are all great! I'd like to hear how they let you down if they are indeed the current zooms.

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    24-70 is the poor man in the bunch for me. You might disagree but it did little for me. 200-400 VR is a great lens on the D3s but struggled to get the best from my D3x and vignettes badly wide open.

    The only two I'd put on the front of a D3x or D800 would be the 14-24 or 70-200 VR II unless I needed the reach of the longer 200-400 VR. I'd rather use primes or 200/2 VR with teleconvertors for longer. YMMV but I shot with all of the Nikon D series from the D1 through to the D3x and as the resolution reached 24mp things got tougher for the glass to keep up. Now for reference, I'm comparing the Nikon glass to the best of the Phase One/Schneider DSLR glass or tech camera lenses from SK/Rodie(oh, and Leica M!)
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I've got to admit when I first read the specs I was wowed by them. We were very sorry to see that Canon didn't release the upgraded 1Ds model we had hoped for and this looked like what we had hoped Canon would have released. So on paper alone it looks very good. As to the sample web images - they are just that - sample web images. I can make my Droid images look good given enough time before posting them on the web so I'm not impressed by what I see on a website. The proof is in the pudding and I'll hold off until someone I know has actual firsthand usage with one.

    So who's it going to be? Jack. Guy. Or John?
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I would love to get mne right away? I just don't know anyone at Nikon. Lol

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    24-70 is the poor man in the bunch for me. You might disagree but it did little for me. 200-400 VR is a great lens on the D3s but struggled to get the best from my D3x and vignettes badly wide open.

    The only two I'd put on the front of a D3x or D800 would be the 14-24 or 70-200 VR II unless I needed the reach of the longer 200-400 VR. I'd rather use primes or 200/2 VR with teleconvertors for longer. YMMV but I shot with all of the Nikon D series from the D1 through to the D3x and as the resolution reached 24mp things got tougher for the glass to keep up. Now for reference, I'm comparing the Nikon glass to the best of the Phase One/Schneider DSLR glass or tech camera lenses from SK/Rodie(oh, and Leica M!)
    Graham, thank you for your reply. I shot my glass on the D700, which was 12MP. I know the D3x really stretched things out, but didn't think the 24-70 would be one of them. I think what your experience is telling how higher MP camera is indeed stretching the glass. At the time when I was personally deciding to upgrade to the D3x, I went with the M9 instead, which made me realize it's not ALL about high MPs and the glass is King!

    Anyways back on topic a bit, while in 35mm DSLR world, the Nikon zoom lenses are exactly like what you say. Near the end of me selling my D700 I went with the 5D MarkII and bought only primes: 24LII, 24TS-E II, 50L, 85LII, 100L Macro. The only zoom I purchase was the 70-200L II. I think it feels a whole bar above the Nikon 70-200G II, and this was on 22MP. I think it's telling when you shoot higher MP how well the glass is, and especially in your case and what you were able to reference.

    Right now, I'm deciding to get rid of my Nikon glass and cancelling my pre-order on the D800E. I think cancelling AA filter has been high on all our lists. I've decided to go back a bit since I'm not making a living on photography at this time. 22MP seems like a sweet-spot for me right now.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    So you obviously thinking of the D3x which is 24 MP, the D700 is most certainly 12MP.
    Of course I meant the D3x -- how stupid of me.
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    M9 like MF is CCD, right? So we're talking about CCD vs CMOS, is it that simple?
    Might be Lars, might be...

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Right now, I'm deciding to get rid of my Nikon glass and cancelling my pre-order on the D800E. I think cancelling AA filter has been high on all our lists. I've decided to go back a bit since I'm not making a living on photography at this time. 22MP seems like a sweet-spot for me right now.
    Btw, one other consideration with 36mp that won't be a surprise here is that you really have to be on top of your game technique-wise too. That was definitely the case with the D3x which unsurprisingly required the same care and attention to get the full resolution out of it as any MFDB based system. Again, I know that this won't be a surprise to most people here but I'll wager that more than a few DSLR shooters moving up from 12mp or so will be in for a few disappointments to start with. I'm sure that the same thing happened with the Canon users going to the 5D Mk II too.
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Wow - folks I only can say WOW!

    How many MF photographers are becoming nervous about the introduction of cameras like the D800/D800E

    Was it really the right investment in MFD some time ago ????

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Wow - folks I only can say WOW!

    How many MF photographers are becoming nervous about the introduction of cameras like the D800/D800E

    Was it really the right investment in MFD some time ago ????
    Oh come on, this is really just throwing fuel on the fire isn't it?

    Do you REALLY think that anyone is 'nervous' or questioning their investment to date?

    Damn - I fell for it and responded ...
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Oh come on, this is really just throwing fuel on the fire isn't it?

    Do you REALLY think that anyone is 'nervous' or questioning their investment to date?

    Damn - I fell for it and responded ...
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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw, one other consideration with 36mp that won't be a surprise here is that you really have to be on top of your game technique-wise too. That was definitely the case with the D3x which unsurprisingly required the same care and attention to get the full resolution out of it as any MFDB based system. Again, I know that this won't be a surprise to most people here but I'll wager that more than a few DSLR shooters moving up from 12mp or so will be in for a few disappointments to start with. I'm sure that the same thing happened with the Canon users going to the 5D Mk II too.
    My feeling as well...... and for that reason I'm waiting for the 1st round of "mint" 2nd hand D800's.....

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Of course you do ... why wouldn't you?

    ...

    Of course, there are those who may actually need all this stuff, but that isn't the point is it? They are a minority. And, yes, the 35mm DSLRs have expanded their diverse nature ... but that has been true for a long time.

    ...

    -Marc
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    When you say that A LOT of photographers prefer (fill in the blank) ... is there a quantifiable poll to support this?

    Or ...They consider this or that to be (fill in blank) ... who is they?

    It sounds to me like you are editorializing about your opinion masked as a majority opinion of a nameless group.

    ...

    -Marc
    Marc,

    A minority? Seriously? Well, excluding soccer moms and uncle bobs from 35mm sales and excluding as well rich amateurs from the DMF sales, of course, I am pretty sure there is an incomparably larger number of people buying and using the features of D3s, D3x and the Canon equivalents for real, serious work than there are buying and using the S2 (or any DMF for that matter) for the same purpose.

    Just one last note - a reminder, to what I said that started the discussion:

    To me, the point is not wether
    - 35mm will or won't replace DMF -
    The point that the D800 (possibly E) and the D3x before it made is:
    - 35 mm is now giving IQ and resolution high enough to be considered for some MF application, while offering body/ergonomics/speed of use/lens selection/accessories selection/flash control/size&weight/battery life/etc etc that are INCOMPARABLY better than ANY MF body/camera system out there.

    So, if the only reason to use MF is squeezing that last bit of IQ out of one's images, IMHO 35 mm will very likely never make it. However, if one needs any of the above pluses of 35mm over DMF, the last generation of bodies/sensor combination is starting to get very, very appealing even for users used to or aiming to MF IQ.

    You turned into a S2-vs-35 mm game, which has nothing to do with what I said The new generation of high-MP 35mm DSLR & lenses, wether we want it or not, DO offer people who want to have ALL 35mm features PLUS a higher, close-to-MF IQ a lot of new options.

    That said, at the moment I am maintaining:
    - Nikon D3 system for low-light concert & stage stuff;
    - DMF Leaf Aptus II 12R with Linhof Techno & lenses for architectural & landscapes; the same with Hassy V camera/lenses for studio stuff;
    - Leica M( (now sold), & film plus Sony Nex-7 with Leica glass for street & reportage.

    I just bought a D3x (very good price, very good conditions), and ordered some Nikon T/S glass and some of the new f1.4 AF-s primes (24, 35, 85) to try and see if I can do without the Hassy in the studio and gain back some of these features I was talking about without loosing too much IQ, and to see if adding a D800E I can do without the Techno (that's a very tall order, but worth trying). This doesn't mean that the IQ will be the same, of course; what counts is, will it be the same for customers and their needs? If so, why wouldn't I leave MF altogether, one system less to maintain...
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    Re: More file for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Never say never... think back a few years to when MF film fans were screaming and sneering at the chance that ANY sensor would ever rival 4 x 5 film...
    And what sensor is that?

    I know of no sensor that can produce the images that 4x5 film can produce.

    You cannot directly compare film to digital. First and foremost digital is essentially limited to small formats. 24x36 or 45x60mm is pretty much where it ends for digital. You can come up with all the fancy sensors in those formats, but you are still stuck with shrinking down an image into that small space.

    Sharpness is not IMHO the most important thing when it comes to an image.
    It's how a lens renders and image to the focal plane and the dimension and depth the image has.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    - 35 mm is now giving IQ and resolution high enough to be considered for some MF application, while offering body/ergonomics/speed of use/lens selection/accessories selection/flash control/size&weight/battery life/etc etc that are INCOMPARABLY better than ANY MF body/camera system out there.
    Most people don't need and arsenal of "machine gun" lenses.

    I shot 90% of my work with two lenses and two cameras.

    Fuji gx680 with a 250mm lens and an 8x10 camera with a 480mm schneider.

    I still shoot most of my important jobs on a Fuji gx680 with film.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Marc,

    A minority? Seriously? Well, excluding soccer moms and uncle bobs from 35mm sales and excluding as well rich amateurs from the DMF sales, of course, I am pretty sure there is an incomparably larger number of people buying and using the features of D3s, D3x and the Canon equivalents for real, serious work than there are buying and using the S2 (or any DMF for that matter) for the same purpose.

    Just one last note - a reminder, to what I said that started the discussion:

    To me, the point is not wether
    - 35mm will or won't replace DMF -
    The point that the D800 (possibly E) and the D3x before it made is:
    - 35 mm is now giving IQ and resolution high enough to be considered for some MF application, while offering body/ergonomics/speed of use/lens selection/accessories selection/flash control/size&weight/battery life/etc etc that are INCOMPARABLY better than ANY MF body/camera system out there.

    So, if the only reason to use MF is squeezing that last bit of IQ out of one's images, IMHO 35 mm will very likely never make it. However, if one needs any of the above pluses of 35mm over DMF, the last generation of bodies/sensor combination is starting to get very, very appealing even for users used to or aiming to MF IQ.

    You turned into a S2-vs-35 mm game, which has nothing to do with what I said The new generation of high-MP 35mm DSLR & lenses, wether we want it or not, DO offer people who want to have ALL 35mm features PLUS a higher, close-to-MF IQ a lot of new options.

    That said, at the moment I am maintaining:
    - Nikon D3 system for low-light concert & stage stuff;
    - DMF Leaf Aptus II 12R with Linhof Techno & lenses for architectural & landscapes; the same with Hassy V camera/lenses for studio stuff;
    - Leica M( (now sold), & film plus Sony Nex-7 with Leica glass for street & reportage.

    I just bought a D3x (very good price, very good conditions), and ordered some Nikon T/S glass and some of the new f1.4 AF-s primes (24, 35, 85) to try and see if I can do without the Hassy in the studio and gain back some of these features I was talking about without loosing too much IQ, and to see if adding a D800E I can do without the Techno (that's a very tall order, but worth trying). This doesn't mean that the IQ will be the same, of course; what counts is, will it be the same for customers and their needs? If so, why wouldn't I leave MF altogether, one system less to maintain...
    A Minority meant those that actually will use or need ALL of the features, vast lens and accessories systems or multiple light CLS techniques of a 35mm DSLR. The subject wasn't just about D3 type cameras which have a nicely defined purpose as does the D4/1DX, nor was it about sales numbers of Pro spec 35mm DSLRs verses a numbingly expensive exotic like the S2. It was about the reality of what people actually do and what they actually use verses the collective catch-all that is used to argued on the internet.

    S2 reference was in answer to the blanket superiority statements of 35mm DSLR features over the collective MFD offerings, which in some (not all) cases I either didn't agree with, or felt some of the specific S2 examples you used like no available fish-eye, Long teles, or T/S lenses wasn't accurate.

    The assumption that the only reason to use a MFD is to squeeze every last ounce of IQ, is just that, an assumption. Ask Shelby Lewis why he moved to MFD for example. Some or perhaps even most MFD users like the more studied way of making photographs. I prefer it for large bright viewfinders, how MFDs operate on a tripod verses little 35mm DSLRs, the way I can put my H back on a studio tech camera for full movements and absolute control of the final image ... whether it be a 16 meg or 60 meg back ... using lenses that have no equal in 35mm or MFD DSLR systems, I also prefer it creatively for the different look, feel and perspective it affords me, and take umbrage to the descriptions such as sterile etc. which are refuted by work of people like our own Derek Jecxz who's very personal and sensitive work is published in Victor magazine this issue, or any number of MFD shooters producing unique styles.

    I am not arguing the benefits of a 35mm system at all ... I am questioning it as a replacement for MFD. I have a nice 35mm system myself ... primarily it is used for wedding photography, other than that it isn't used at all except as back-up to the S2 when necessary.

    I also am not arguing against the fact that for many, the D800 will allow 35mm DSLR users to reach up and cover more needs as defined by today's photographic demands. A D4 and D800 would make for a killer systems set-up to meet most shooters needs ...but do not agree that it replaces MFD ... IF, big IF, a MFD user chose that format for the right reasons.

    -Marc

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    Re: More file for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    And what sensor is that?

    I know of no sensor that can produce the images that 4x5 film can produce.

    You cannot directly compare film to digital. First and foremost digital is essentially limited to small formats. 24x36 or 45x60mm is pretty much where it ends for digital. You can come up with all the fancy sensors in those formats, but you are still stuck with shrinking down an image into that small space.

    Sharpness is not IMHO the most important thing when it comes to an image.
    It's how a lens renders and image to the focal plane and the dimension and depth the image has.
    I used the word 'rival' and not 'match' precisely because you can't directly compare apples to oranges. However, having said that, it's more like comparing satsumas to tangerines really. MFD and 4x5 or 8x10 are all ways of capturing images that can later be turned into prints, often large prints and in that sense they can and should be compared. Of course they both have strengths and weaknesses but there are plenty of serious photographers out there who think that a 40mp DB rivals a 4x5 and an 80mp rivals a 10x8.

    What you, or indeed I, happen to think is irrelevant really: just one of a number of informed and experienced data points and only likely to affect us and our clients. The fact is, you can't make categorical statements like "I know of no sensor that can produce the images that 4x5 film can produce"... because of course you know what the sensors are, you just don't agree with the validity of comparison or the possibly the conclusions drawn from it. Many, no doubt equally qualified and experienced people see it differently.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Geeez.. I just finished reading the entire thread (a lot of reading ). What is most striking, some have already said this, it is a repeat of steps we have had over the years. Basically everytime a new DSLR came out.

    Having said that, I was thinking about the days I started with photography in the early 80's. Even than, there was a constant commotion of the next film being able to provide MF quality. Even at that time there was a constant search for the 35mm setup to put MF out of business by reaching the same quality.

    I have been in that 'race' until about 2005, 20 odd years or so of straining myself to get close to results that MF provided. At that time I simply gave up and switched to MF to never look back.

    My point?

    If the MF look/quality or whatever is what you are after it is far less straining (maybe even cheaper) to just take the step and go for it. Why waste valuable time trying to make a surrogate look like it?

    At this stage in time I use both. I have a D800e on order (but I still might swap it for a D4 since I use DSLR not so much for pure resolution) and use HB. I pick whatever I feel is appropriate for the task ahead. For many things I prefer the MF rig, not only for the quality if provides but also the way I can work with it.
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    Geeez.. I just finished reading the entire thread (a lot of reading ). What is most striking, some have already said this, it is a repeat of steps we have had over the years. Basically everytime a new DSLR came out.

    Having said that, I was thinking about the days I started with photography in the early 80's. Even than, there was a constant commotion of the next film being able to provide MF quality. Even at that time there was a constant search for the 35mm setup to put MF out of business by reaching the same quality.

    I have been in that 'race' until about 2005, 20 odd years or so of straining myself to get close to results that MF provided. At that time I simply gave up and switched to MF to never look back.

    My point?

    If the MF look/quality or whatever is what you are after it is far less straining (maybe even cheaper) to just take the step and go for it. Why waste valuable time trying to make a surrogate look like it?

    At this stage in time I use both. I have a D800e on order (but I still might swap it for a D4 since I use DSLR not so much for pure resolution) and use HB. I pick whatever I feel is appropriate for the task ahead. For many things I prefer the MF rig, not only for the quality if provides but also the way I can work with it.
    My experiences exactly over just about the same time period ... I even remember shooting super low ASA 35mm transparency films and having then duped up to 4"X5" to try and look more professional

    But let's not confuse the issue with experience, logic and reason.

    -Marc
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    Geeez.. I just finished reading the entire thread (a lot of reading ). What is most striking, some have already said this, it is a repeat of steps we have had over the years. Basically everytime a new DSLR came out.

    Having said that, I was thinking about the days I started with photography in the early 80's. Even than, there was a constant commotion of the next film being able to provide MF quality. Even at that time there was a constant search for the 35mm setup to put MF out of business by reaching the same quality.

    I have been in that 'race' until about 2005, 20 odd years or so of straining myself to get close to results that MF provided. At that time I simply gave up and switched to MF to never look back.

    My point?

    If the MF look/quality or whatever is what you are after it is far less straining (maybe even cheaper) to just take the step and go for it. Why waste valuable time trying to make a surrogate look like it?

    At this stage in time I use both. I have a D800e on order (but I still might swap it for a D4 since I use DSLR not so much for pure resolution) and use HB. I pick whatever I feel is appropriate for the task ahead. For many things I prefer the MF rig, not only for the quality if provides but also the way I can work with it.
    Totally agree just get it over with and go MF. My issue is I still need 35 but not to beat my MF kit far from it. It's totally a use thing so I'm not even trying but getting close does help and I think this Nikon closes the gap a little more and that is all it does. Will see how that works out but this struggle here of thinking it eliminates the big boys is just silly, I look at my Phase files off my tech cam and there is nothing on this planet that will beat them nor do I want to try. At some point we need to stop chasing clouds. I'm done with that, I want the best MF kit I can have for ME and that I have. After that it's just getting work done.

    But it is nice having a 35mm cam that can produce a great file, I hope this one is the one. I'm betting on it will work for me.
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw, one other consideration with 36mp that won't be a surprise here is that you really have to be on top of your game technique-wise too. That was definitely the case with the D3x which unsurprisingly required the same care and attention to get the full resolution out of it as any MFDB based system. Again, I know that this won't be a surprise to most people here but I'll wager that more than a few DSLR shooters moving up from 12mp or so will be in for a few disappointments to start with. I'm sure that the same thing happened with the Canon users going to the 5D Mk II too.
    Well, as someone who tries hard to care about technique for whatever it is that I do with a camera, I enjoyed what I was getting from higher MPs and even thought about going DMF, the closest thing I own is the RZ Pro II, so I'm not going to be chasing models or pictures of my son with that thing :P

    Although, what DSLRs offer are a great AF system, although clearly not from my 5D Mark II. I also shoot often with my 50mm lens at f1.2, and freeze things with a flash and modifier, only the small one though, but with very satisfying results (to me). I definitely feel why going big will bring a lot technique considerations, I also feel anyone who clearly knows what they are buying will have a lot of consideration for it as well, not refuting your points, I'm just adding to it

    Definitely to those, who are going FF on a DSLR for the first time may feel the disappointment to begin with. However, I felt I needed to learn from my M9 too, it was both humbling and confidence building for anyone who cares about technique. I think the D800 is bringing photographers in a converging way, whether or not we decide to buy into it!

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Totally agree just get it over with and go MF. My issue is I still need 35 but not to beat my MF kit far from it. It's totally a use thing so I'm not even trying but getting close does help and I think this Nikon closes the gap a little more and that is all it does. Will see how that works out but this struggle here of thinking it eliminates the big boys is just silly, I look at my Phase files off my tech cam and there is nothing on this planet that will beat them nor do I want to try. At some point we need to stop chasing clouds. I'm done with that, I want the best MF kit I can have for ME and that I have. After that it's just getting work done.

    But it is nice having a 35mm cam that can produce a great file, I hope this one is the one. I'm betting on it will work for me.
    Absolutely perfect summation.

    Are we done yet?

    -Marc

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Are we done yet?
    Perhaps, for now, at least until the 50MP Canon is announced

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Absolutely perfect summation.

    Are we done yet?

    -Marc
    I think "we" will be neve done

    I am done, as I already said, I am keeping my HB, just because I love it and have a D800E on order because I was just waiting for this type of flexible DSLR (in combo with top Nikon glass).

    An I might get a M10 if this one meets my demands I already had for the M9, but did not get.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Totally agree just get it over with and go MF. My issue is I still need 35 but not to beat my MF kit far from it. It's totally a use thing so I'm not even trying but getting close does help and I think this Nikon closes the gap a little more and that is all it does. Will see how that works out but this struggle here of thinking it eliminates the big boys is just silly, I look at my Phase files off my tech cam and there is nothing on this planet that will beat them nor do I want to try. At some point we need to stop chasing clouds. I'm done with that, I want the best MF kit I can have for ME and that I have. After that it's just getting work done.

    But it is nice having a 35mm cam that can produce a great file, I hope this one is the one. I'm betting on it will work for me.
    There are some things that MF can't do as well as 35mm and that's the sole reason we'll continue to have one. As good as 35mm has gotten it still hasn't reached the level of MF. I've got the same feelings toward film vs digital only I feel digital has surpassed film in many ways.

    Don

    (I was going to cherry-pick Guy's quote but decided to leave it as is)
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    But let's not confuse the issue with experience, logic and reason.

    -Marc


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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I wouldn't actually call that a perfect summation, but your smiley faces are much more to the point!

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    "Are we done yet?" Some will never be done, as the title of this thread suggests; they think it's fun to fight on the internet, to add fuel to the fire.

    As for the others -- including me -- we'll only be done when we stop responding.

    I'm done.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Are we done yet?" Some will never be done, as the title of this thread suggests; they think it's fun to fight on the internet, to add fuel to the fire.

    As for the others -- including me -- we'll only be done when we stop responding.

    I'm done.
    Well... I started the thread because I read about a clearly competent professional photographer who has used the D800 and and is mighty impressed by it and has made his own judgement about it in relation to MF. I certainly don't think it's 'fun to fight on the Internet' but I do think that not sharing interesting information for fear it will offend those who would rather others didn't discuss it would be a strange way to go through life.

    There is a fire, whether you like it or not: a fire caused by the friction between those who want and don't want this whole 'D800 is as good as/rivals/will obviate the need for MFD' thing to be true and those who, like me, would quite like it to be but think that if it is, it will only be to a limited extent.

    Fires can warm people as well as burn them. They can also clear scrub and let new forests grow.

    Tim
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    One thing that is interesting to me is that I've found most people who claim DSLR's will Kill MF have actually never shot or played with a MF file.
    There is a lot more to it than just resolution.
    Now I shoot both MF and DSLR, just as I had multiple formats in the film days.
    A week ago I did a 4 day shoot on the littlest Phase that could; The P21+ (Rental)
    It's ONLY 18 megapixels, but at ISO 100, I just couldn't help loving the files, There is just something to them and I know we use words like Depth and roll-off, 3d and....., but I just can't make up the word to explain it.
    It just had a feel that I have never been able to achieve with the best of the DSLRs and ZF-ZE glass.
    Now am I going to shoot everything MF, No way man.... right tool for the right job...
    why is this such a hard concept???

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I really enjoy the thread like this. Compared to the place like "FM forums", this thread is very educational and peaceful.
    To me, the benefits of having Nikon D800 are having a great back up, low light and easy-to-use camera and decreasing the price of medium format. It's just win-win situation.
    Just use the camera you can afford and have fun!

    Pramote

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Well... I started the thread because I read about a clearly competent professional photographer who has used the D800 and and is mighty impressed by it and has made his own judgement about it in relation to MF.
    I have done a lot of research and it is important to see where the information comes from. This photographer does a lot of promotion work for Nikon and was asked by Nikon to put this together. I looked at his site and can find no evidence that he actually has shot MFD.

    His review is very good. But having read a lot of promotional material from camera companies, I do take it with a grain of salt. I will not quite believe Fuji's claim the the X-Pro1 has the same resolution as a 35mm sensor nor did I believe the claim from sigma that the SD-1 was equivalent to a 40MP sensor.

    Now it true every time a company release a product folks get excited like Christmas is coming and Santa will bring them a magic present. I really do not have that much interest in the next product--the promise never meets the reality. I have found physics does not not suddenly change on the claims of marketing. Since this is not the first 35mm to make the claim of being as good as MFD and the previous contenders did not actually live up to this claim, a claim based solely on the number of pixels, what has changed now?

    Properly, this thread should be in the Nikon forum. It has nothing to do with MFD.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I really enjoy the thread like this. Compared to the place like "FM forums", this thread is very educational and peaceful.
    To me, the benefits of having Nikon D800 are having a great back up, low light and easy-to-use camera and decreasing the price of medium format. It's just win-win situation.
    Just use the camera you can afford and have fun!

    Pramote
    +1 "Just use the camera you can afford and have fun!"
    Could not agree more, perhaps not the part about the decreasing price of MF :P

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I have done a lot of research and it is important to see where the information comes from. This photographer does a lot of promotion work for Nikon and was asked by Nikon to put this together. I looked at his site and can find no evidence that he actually has shot MFD.

    His review is very good. But having read a lot of promotional material from camera companies, I do take it with a grain of salt. I will not quite believe Fuji's claim the the X-Pro1 has the same resolution as a 35mm sensor nor did I believe the claim from sigma that the SD-1 was equivalent to a 40MP sensor.

    Now it true every time a company release a product folks get excited like Christmas is coming and Santa will bring them a magic present. I really do not have that much interest in the next product--the promise never meets the reality. I have found physics does not not suddenly change on the claims of marketing. Since this is not the first 35mm to make the claim of being as good as MFD and the previous contenders did not actually live up to this claim, a claim based solely on the number of pixels, what has changed now?
    Yup, it is very clear (he even states that he worked with the advertising company on the casting and concepts for the shoot) that he is a Nikon guy. He makes no bones about it. As for whether he has ever shot MF, I have no idea, maybe not. But I do remember when the M8 was released and Leica used a portfolio of shots I took in Venice to show people what the camera could do. Plenty of people accused me by email of being their patsy - which was 100% untrue. So I have some sympathy for this Nikon guy and am naturally inclined to believe that he's not so far in Nikon's pocket that his opinions are compromised beyond usefulness.

    Properly, this thread should be in the Nikon forum. It has nothing to do with MFD.
    I wouldn't mind at all if it were moved and no doubt a moderator will do so if that's appropriate. But it very clearly does have something to do with MFD because as is very clear from the responses on this thread, a number of people are hoping that the D800 will be able to take on some of the duties of their MF systems. I'm not seeing anyone who currently believes that it will replace their MF, but we all like to use the right tools for the right jobs and it may be that the D800 penetrates into some areas currently best handled by MF.

    It is also pretty clear that a lot of people are finding the discussion interesting and possibly useful. There's no war here, just hopes and opinions and a pleasure in sharing and analysing the few scant data points we so far have.

  34. #134
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I would say that this thread is exactly where it should be - as it is what it intends to discuss - that DSLRs are coming into MFD territory.

    Wether one likes to believe or not - it is a fact. Moving it away from here would mean to put our head int the sand and ignoring what is coming and where the technology is evolving.

    I can only reiterate that I do not find anything wrong about this. While I still like and prefer MFD for certain applications, the truth is that DSLRs are entering former MFD proprietary area. Which has a number of advantages like being able to use these cameras where one would not have used MFD, just because of weight, bulkiness, choice of lenses, possibilities of high ISO etc. etc.

    I am really traveling very much and I also do take MFD with me as I did with MF film. But it happens more often that I wish I would have a - say it carefully - close to MFD capable DSLR with me. Especially with airline restrictions even in business class. And BTW, US airlines, especially inside US, can be the worst in that area!!!! So I do prefer a lighter and smaller kit. Also for landscape, where I normally need some hiking to be able to take my shots, I really prefer less weight and smaller form factor. NOT EVERYTHING is shot in easily accessible locations or studio. And exactly for this work a D800 or D800E will bring a huge advantage!

    SO why not stop this silly "DSLRs can never reach the IQ of MFD" and just accept that as technology advances we will just get more nice options which we only could have dreamed some years ago.

    PS1: guess what will be possible inn 5 or in 10 years from now - iPhone with today's MFD resolution and close to today's MFD quality?
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I would say that this thread is exactly where it should be - as it is what it intends to discuss - that DSLRs are coming into MFD territory.

    Wether one likes to believe or not - it is a fact. Moving it away from here would mean to put our head int the sand and ignoring what is coming and where the technology is evolving.

    I can only reiterate that I do not find anything wrong about this. While I still like and prefer MFD for certain applications, the truth is that DSLRs are entering former MFD proprietary area. Which has a number of advantages like being able to use these cameras where one would not have used MFD, just because of weight, bulkiness, choice of lenses, possibilities of high ISO etc. etc.

    I am really traveling very much and I also do take MFD with me as I did with MF film. But it happens more often that I wish I would have a - say it carefully - close to MFD capable DSLR with me. Especially with airline restrictions even in business class. And BTW, US airlines, especially inside US, can be the worst in that area!!!! So I do prefer a lighter and smaller kit. Also for landscape, where I normally need some hiking to be able to take my shots, I really prefer less weight and smaller form factor. NOT EVERYTHING is shot in easily accessible locations or studio. And exactly for this work a D800 or D800E will bring a huge advantage!

    SO why not stop this silly "DSLRs can never reach the IQ of MFD" and just accept that as technology advances we will just get more nice options which we only could have dreamed some years ago.

    PS1: guess what will be possible inn 5 or in 10 years from now - iPhone with today's MFD resolution and close to today's MFD quality?
    Within the limitations of the laws of physics of course. Those pesky things keep getting in the way.
    -bob

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Within the limitations of the laws of physics of course. Those pesky things keep getting in the way.
    -bob
    I do agree, but knowing these restrictions one can apply them as needed and then you are again just fine

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Yeah totally silly, but it looks like they are having so much fun!

    Anyone want to buy a point and shoot with 36MP? Anyone? :P

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Yeah totally silly, but it looks like they are having so much fun!

    Anyone want to buy a point and shoot with 36MP? Anyone? :P
    Quite a lot of truth in that statement. I've met owners of high meg FF DSLRs who shoot JPGS, have not a clue what RAW is all about much less how critical post processing is to the quality of the final image and who seem content to use Photoshop Elements or Google Picasa for any post work. Then the files are sent to Costco or Walmart for prints.

    A slight bit of sarcasm here but I suspect there will 800s on the market within the year, sold by owners who could not tell the difference between the 800 and 700. It all reminds me of the neurotic world of high end audio.

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    Re: More file for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    The fact is, you can't make categorical statements like "I know of no sensor that can produce the images that 4x5 film can produce"...
    Actually my statement is based on a simple fact. Lenses of larger formats have a look that cannot be matched in smaller formats. Perspective, depth, falloff and dimentional image rendering.

    IF you put a 45x60mm sensor behind a 4x5 lens you are only capturing a fraction of the image.

    Then there's the whole black and white thing to consider.

    While digital improves capture on small formats it still cannot "look at" what large format lenses project.

  40. #140
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    At least so far, I've found much (most?) of this thread a bit amusing.

    Even if we ignore all factors other than resolution, the D800 (not available yet) is slightly (but only slightly) ahead of the P30, which I believe came out in 2007. It's still not yet caught up with the P40+, which came out in 2009 though. Interpolating between those, just in terms of spatial resolution, 135 format is running about 4 years behind MF.

    Most of the other factors remain to be seen, but I think it's fair to guess that the spatial resolution is probably the highlight of the D800. It almost certainly will not beat those 4 year-old MF backs in other respects -- and on quite a few it will still almost certainly lag behind them. So, what we have is at least a 4 year "lag" between a given level of image quality in MF, and something that (at best) might start to approach the same level in 135.

    Looking at things from the other direction for a moment, I'm a bit reminded of arguments I heard between proponents of various kinds of computer systems 10-20 years ago. Users of workstation from Sun, Silicon Graphics, Apollo, HP, etc., would happily point out that there was no comparison. Their workstations were not just faster, but much more sophisticated, dependable, etc., than those slow, cheap, unreliable Windows and Mac boxes with their cheap mass-production processors.

    That argument's pretty much over though. Though there's still a niche for high-end servers with other processors, Intel boxes have pretty much taken over the workstation market and most of the server market too -- Windows machines and Macs both run Intel processors now, and the RISC workstation market is purely historic. Oracle, HP, and IBM still sell high-end servers with other processors, but it at least seems like the market share shrinks a bit every year.

    It's also true that in the process some sophistication has been lost. A current Windows or Mac machine still doesn't do networking quite as nicely as an Apollo workstation did 20+ years ago. It uses a lot of brute force to even come close to matching an Amiga for around the same time. Nonetheless, Apollos and Amigas are long gone and mostly forgotten. Some of that is undoubtedly due to management problems, but a lot more is due to the simple fact that the low-end "garbage" they once barely even bothered to sneer at, got enough better at their specialty (while remaining cheaper and easier for most people to use) that almost nobody was willing to pay enough extra for their strengths to support the companies.

    To summarize: I don't think it's anywhere close to given that Nikon (or 135 in general) is set to catch up with MF in general -- but at the same time, if I were Phase, Hasselblad, etc., I might not be exactly nervous, but I'd definitely be working hard at ensuring that I kept that 4 year gap open. I'd also be working really hard to matching the features of 135 like ease of use and convenience as much as possible to make it as easy as possible for the high-end 135 models to act as a "gateway drug" for MF, rather than the other way around. In the long term, inexpensive beats sophisticated nearly every time.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Next week: Sony Nex 7, The Phase One P25+ Killer

  42. #142
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Within the limitations of the laws of physics of course. Those pesky things keep getting in the way.
    -bob
    Well, Bob - I seem to remember someone proving conclusively that nothing more than 6mp was relevant in a 35mm sensor because of the 'laws of physics'

    The Nyquist factor is one thing - sampling rates is another.

    I'm not suggesting that anyone is going to bust the laws of physics . . . just that things that seem to be insurmountable problems when looked at in one direction are often capable of being sidestepped when looking in another.

    Clearly a 35mm sized sensor is not going to give the same 'feel' as an MF sensor (anymore than film gives the same 'feel' as digital) - on the other hand I would think that the resolution capable on the best FF sensors has certainly overtaken where MF was a few years ago.

    I don't really have an opinion on the core of this discussion (I don't have experience of MF, so, unlike most of you who are only half blind (not having seen proper D800 images) . . I'm fully blind!).

    Personally, I've long since got past the point where any of my good photographs are damaged by the quality of my equipment - and my indifferent photos can't possibly be rescued from their mediocrity either by better colour depth or more resolution.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: More file for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    Actually my statement is based on a simple fact. Lenses of larger formats have a look that cannot be matched in smaller formats. Perspective, depth, falloff and dimentional image rendering.

    IF you put a 45x60mm sensor behind a 4x5 lens you are only capturing a fraction of the image.

    Then there's the whole black and white thing to consider.

    While digital improves capture on small formats it still cannot "look at" what large format lenses project.
    Yup, my bad for misreading your post. I agree totally with you. It begs a lot of other questions about how you might want an image to render, what techniques you might use to impersonate one format with another, and what size sensor/film suits a particular photographer and job. I've always wanted to play with one of those huge Polaroid backs or, even better, get a sheet of 60x40 inside a room-sized camera obscura but I'm running four systems already!

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I doubt very much that the "look" of MFD will ever be achieved by 35mm so lets put that debate to bed.

    However, I feel there is a bigger picture to all these high Mpix 35mm cameras that could seriously threaten a company like Phase/Leafs very future.

    While I'm sure there are very large profit margins in MF backs, the number sold is relatively small and I would imagine Phase/Leaf being the "open system" gain much revenue from the system sales. EVERY user only buys one back but EVERY shooter buys multiple lenses and possibly camera bodies. If photographers like our very own Guy, Jack and the OP Tim, buy the high Mpix Nikon/Canon and it proves great for DSLR type of work the incentive to invest in the MF glass/cameras diminishes.

    Initially, digital back sales may not be effected by these new cameras as many now use them with wide glass on tech cameras but how long before people are unable to justify the huge cost of the rest of the system. Take for example the SK 150mm LS. A pretty standard focal length lens that most photographers want in their bag but at nearly $5K its a bitter pill to swallow. This is not some exotic super telephoto but a standard short tele that just happens to have a shutter built in.

    When do we as a business say I can get near that quality with a Nikon/Canon and is more economical to invest my money there?

    The niche for MFD may have just got a bit smaller and that is bad news IMO!
    Last edited by gazwas; 26th February 2012 at 15:58.

  45. #145
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by jcoffin View Post
    if I were Phase, Hasselblad, etc., I might not be exactly nervous, but I'd definitely be working hard at ensuring that I kept that 4 year gap open. I'd also be working really hard to matching the features of 135 like ease of use and convenience as much as possible to make it as easy as possible for the high-end 135 models to act as a "gateway drug" for MF, rather than the other way around. In the long term, inexpensive beats sophisticated nearly every time.
    whilst I think that's true I also think that they need to look at closing the gap in the areas they lag. I don't want an IQ100 but I do want a DF body replacement with a civilised shutter, better AF, fewer glitches and lock-ups etc... And I'd also like proper live view for focussing on tech cams. I'm not alone, I know. There are also things that MFDB can do that SLR style cams generally can't (like movements on the back only, for flat stitches) and those are the core USPs and aren't dependant on no one playing sensor catchup.

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Personally, I've long since got past the point where any of my good photographs are damaged by the quality of my equipment - and my indifferent photos can't possibly be rescued from their mediocrity either by better colour depth or more resolution.
    Where are these 'indifferent' photos Jono? I sure ain't seen 'em!

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    I think this thread has increased Nikon's sales for the D800 significantly, just based on the responses from most MFD users A very impromptu method of gauging market share. Whilst most are not going to replace MFD with this camera, nor should they. I do believe it might be the S2 that it might be ultimately compared with. Yes, Leica is safe, it's a great camera, but as some here have pointed out, the uninitiated are most certainly going to give this camera a second look just based on investment. The form factor of the two are similar, and so is the MP, so this is a perfectly proper area to have this discussion. After three pages of responses perhaps it might be a little after the fact to move it now.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 26th February 2012 at 19:32.

  48. #148
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Within the limitations of the laws of physics of course. Those pesky things keep getting in the way.
    -bob
    They said that about flying also. To quote an ancient, long gone relative of mine, much less than 100 years ago: "I wouldn't be surprised if people in the future will be buying readymade meatloaf."
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Where are these 'indifferent' photos Jono? I sure ain't seen 'em!
    Hah! you are too kind . . . Mediocrity is my Speciality!

    Which is perhaps why I still don't seem to have a medium format camera?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: More fuel for the 'D800 as good as MF' fire

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I think this thread has increased Nikon's sales for the D800 significantly, just based on the responses from most MFD users. A very impromptu method of gauging market share. Whilst most are not going to replace MFD with this camera, nor should they. I do believe it might be the S2 that it might be ultimately compared with. Yes, Leica is safe, it's a great camera, but as some here have pointed out, the uninitiated are most certainly going to give this camera a second look just based on investment. The form factor of the two are similar, and so is the MP, so this is a perfectly proper area to have this discussion. After three pages of responses perhaps it might be a little after the fact to move it now.
    Statistically insignificant. This amounts to an on-line focus group, and if you've ever observed focus groups, you'd know that what people say and what they do are two totally different matters.

    Without a research moderator to control the interactive dynamics, it's even less than statistically insignificant.

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