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Thread: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    A plea for help: I have used my 645DF so far mostly with the 80mm Phase lens when in the studio using flash. I have a 110LS lens which I have used rarely and only at 1/125th in X sync mode.

    I have a shoot tomorrow evening and need to work out how best to use higher shutter speeds (such as 1/800th) with the LS lens and studio flash. I am using Bowens Gemini, triggered by a Pulsar radio trigger which slots into the 645DF hotshoe. This triggers nicely using X sync mode but is as yet untested using the faster shutter speeds of LS.

    I have tried to look through the Phase manual but I'm afraid on this subject, to me at least, it's not helpful...

    If anyone has experience of this scenario and can offer a fool's guide, I would be very grateful!

    Thanks....

  2. #2
    Paul66
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Your going to have to shoot with a sync cord to get the faster shutter speeds, already went through all that!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Oh oh... So the hotshoe doesn't fire when in LS mode?

    Do you have to do anything complicated in custom functions?

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    And double check your flash duration, it can be longer than your shutter speed depending on the power of the units.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Tim,

    There are two different things you will need to check when photographing at higher flash sync wirelessly with the Phase 645DF and LS lenses.

    1. Check the flash duration of your particular lights (which Bowens?) at the various output levels.

    2. Check the flash sync triggering capabilities of your wireless system. If not capable, then you're left with using a sync cord (assuming your strobes have a short flash duration.

    The limitations on your ability to use higher flash sync will vary according to your lights (short) flash duration ability and limitations of your wireless trigger. So, if your triggering system can only handle 1/800th---that's where your ceiling is at. Faster triggers and shorter light durations will allow you to go all the way up to your max of 1/1600th with the SK LS lenses.

    Yes, the hotshoe will fire in LS mode and trigger your transmitter.

    On the DF, you can set CF18 to auto switch beteen using the focal plane or leaf shutter capable lens, FP only, or LS only.

    ken
    Last edited by kdphotography; 8th March 2012 at 08:28.

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Use M or Av modes, not X
    The Pulsar I think can do 1/320 or 1/500 and the same goes for the Gemini
    If you're using a cord don't forget to plug it into the body and not into the back
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Thank you do much for the advice chaps... I will test out these tips tomorrow before the shoot. Hope I can return the favours!

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    It would be really helpful if you could post your findings Tim as not everyone shoots Profoto/Airsync.

    I shoot Bowens lights and would love to know what model Gemini/Gemini Pro you used and what radio sync etc.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    So far preliminary trial is:

    Gear:
    Two Bowens Gemini GM500R with one Bowens Pulsar radio trigger.
    Phase IQ180 on 645DF with SK 110 LS mounted and Custom Function 18 set to Auto

    Mode is set to Manual: no metering, just trial and error for exposure. The Pulsar is happily fired by the hotshoe with no need for a sync cable, at least up to 1/500th, and that seems to be working nicely, triggering one flash by radio which in turn is triggering the other by flash alone.

    All seems to have worked first time though no doubt this evening when I try to tether and run Capture Pilot, there will be some issues but hey, it's all part of the fun and games.

    I will report back!

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Thanks Tim, that's really good to know you are getting 1/500th sec from the 500R as the flash duration is quite long on those units (t=0.5 1/900).

    Would be good to know the sort of power settings you are using.

    Good luck with the job.

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Tim what will happen if your too fast on sync is images will progressively get darker so go for a common shutter speed like 1/125 and save that image . Than try going up the scale until it starts getting darker than compare the 1/125 shot than you will know your cutoff speed. Easy to do tethered that way you can watch the histogram. At some point your remote trigger will not get you up to the 1/1600 speed but this way you can tell how far you can push it and honestly 1/500 sounds like it unless you get into Profoto or hensel remote triggers. Worst case if you absolutely need the speed sync cored it drop power and it should take you there. It really is a balance of short duration and remote trigger
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Also you might want to check and see if there are any issues with color shifting if you are chopping the strobe duration short by running the shutter speed faster than the flash duration. You might not get consistent color if using just a portion of the flash pulse.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Just waiting for the model to arrive and I haven't had a chance to try all the above because (grr, as is so often the case) I am fighting the camera. It keeps on resetting its own aperture to F2.8.... I am trying to shoot at 6.3 and it is such a nightmare getting the exact DOF I want according to markers when the camera can't remember its own settings for more than a minute. Sometimes I wonder....

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Put on manual than tape the damn thing down. LOL

    Don't feel bad I'm in processing hell about 950 FULL RES images to process. I got smoke pouring out the back end of my MBP. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Dude, it IS on manual! This happens in any mode. aaaarrgh!

    Sounds like the passive cooling's gone on your back!

    ;-)

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Its on manual and its moving around. WTF is that all about.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    You don't get much luck with your kit Tim.

    You tried cleaning the lens/body contacts to see if its a communication error?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    It does it all the time, always has... regardless of FW updates, shooting mode, whatever, and the cleanest contacts in the business. I've sort of gotten used to it, it's just this evening the DOF issue needs to be really exact so there's been a lot more to-ing and fro-ing. Oh, did I mention the model is an hour late and I'm hungry!

    Jeesh I'm such a whiner...

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    A hungry photographer is never a happy one!

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Tim, have you tried burning sage? A minor exorcism perhaps? Don Libby suggests burning sage, chanting, and dancing naked around the DF. That's usually exactly the time when your model will show up...


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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash



    It was so embarrasing being caught like that: the sage fire had got rather out of control and when the model arrived I was trying to put it out with a can of whipped cream...

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Tim, have you tried burning sage? A minor exorcism perhaps? Don Libby suggests burning sage, chanting, and dancing naked around the DF. That's usually exactly the time when your model will show up...

    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Seriously I have raised the aperture reset issue with Phase as a support case cos it's doing my head in. Does no one else get this problem?

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Seriously I have raised the aperture reset issue with Phase as a support case cos it's doing my head in. Does no one else get this problem?
    Nope, no problems at all. I have a perfectly well-behaved Phase DF and IQ180 that work well together, including fast wireless flash sync up to 1/1600.

    Of course, there's no sage left in the house, burn marks on the ceiling, and the neighbors won't let their kids come over to the house to play with my kids anymore. Should have followed Don's advice and closed the front drapes...



    Seriously though, maybe check firmware on both the DF and the IQ?

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Was the DF a PITA before you had the IQ180?

    I use my DF with a P+ back and its rock solid.

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Seriously I have raised the aperture reset issue with Phase as a support case cos it's doing my head in. Does no one else get this problem?
    Tim, I have the opposite issue. I will be shooting away at 5.6 and suddenly everything goes dark. F has gone to 18, or wherever the minimum aperture sits. If you don't check the back, you can lose shots that way. I mentioned this to P1 a month or so ago.

    I did notice that I sometimes move the aperture wheel inadvertently. I use a strap and the way the heavy body sits in my hand tends to rub the wheel as I move the camera around. A lock would be great.

    Other issue I have is the back defaulting the custom settings for no reason.

    Re sage, I prefer to kill a chicken. Dance is the same but the soup is good.

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    I have the same issues as Tim on my 645DF with P40+ back. Latest firmware in everything, and it still does it occasionally.
    Take a load of shots at f/8, say, then the next one is with the lens wide open.
    I have raised this issue before on here, and nobody else responded.
    But now we are three in the "auto wide open" club!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    I've been testing this today in response to questions from Phase support, and I can only make it happen with the 110LS... Also, now I have updated to back FW 2.01 from 1.47 and you can now control aperture and shutter sped from Capture Pilot and C1 and so far (sage burning, curtains drawn, chicken at the ready) it seems to have stopped. Of course, as soon as a real shoot starts, it'll follow Sod's Law....

    I can't get to the new FW for my DF because my dealer's Vgrip was at a show this week when I was able to take the body in, so at some time in the near future I will do that too.

    But thanks for the feedback guys...it's all part of the jigsaw!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    PS I have now used the remote aperture control feature of C1 in a tethered session to ascertain that in fact I can't get proper flash sync above X sync speeds: it appears to be working but even when in forced Leaf Shutter mode from Custom Function 18, every time I bump the shutter faster than 1/125th, though there appears to be sync and the frame is exposed, with constant aperture each frame is darker with progressively faster shutter speeds... I will try it with a sync cord instead of the hot shoe and see if that makes a difference...

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    That more to do with the Gemini's rather than the camera.

    Due to the slow flash duration, the faster you go up in sync speed the less of the output of the flash is registered on each capture.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    That more to do with the Gemini's rather than the camera.

    Due to the slow flash duration, the faster you go up in sync speed the less of the output of the flash is registered on each capture.
    From memory the Gemini 500Rs have a flash duration of 1/900th so I would have hoped to get 1/500th out of them... but I am no expert!

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    1/900th at their highest setting but any thing lower and that drops dramatically. 1/300th sounds more realistic and I'd test at various power setting around that as a starting point and work your way up.

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    From memory the Gemini 500Rs have a flash duration of 1/900th so I would have hoped to get 1/500th out of them... but I am no expert!
    That's likely the specification for T.5, which is the time it takes to discharge half the light from the strobe. The more accurate specification is T.1 which represents a discharge of 90% of the strobe's power. The general rule is that T.1 is about 1/3 the speed of T.5, so your Gemini's are likely really discharging at around 1/300. The 1/900 spec may also be for full power. If you go lower in power, your duration is likely longer (depending on the strobe's design).

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    You need some lights with a much faster flash duration, and a wireless that can keep up.

    Let's go shopping Tim!


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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    From memory the Gemini 500Rs have a flash duration of 1/900th so I would have hoped to get 1/500th out of them... but I am no expert!
    Well, that is probably just the t0.5 duration. You should check the t0.1 time of your system which is probably something like 1/290 or somewhere in that region. t0.1 is the duration after which 90% of the flash's power is gone (t0.5 = half of the power gone if I remember correctly..). Some flash durations wary depending on the power output. So if you're using a fast synced shutter speed you're cutting off the last part of your flash's power. Maybe you can compensate for that by increasing the power output. Good luck.

    Dammit, I was to slow... Just like your strobes.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    This place is full of comedians tonight! (thank God)

    Great advice... And another whole load of stuff to learn. I've been shooting static studio stuff for a couple of years now but not very often and never needed to go beyond X so now, on to the next part of the learning curve... Which leads, as my good friend above has pointed out, to the buying curve.

    Sigh. My D800e is almost in the post and I have NO Nikon glass.

    Where's the wallet....

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    Re: Help with 645D and leaf shutter with flash

    I am guessing you have something delaying the firing of your flash or have a flash with to long of a flash duration.

    I would use a cable sync. More reliable and it does not microwave your brain and optic nerve.

    But seriously taking the wireless out of the picture would narrow down any issues you are having.

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