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Thread: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    I'm still seeing crazy, crazy prices for these and in many places the Leaf backs also.

    You can buy a H3DII 39 for around the 4-5K GBP mark here in the UK yet I'm seeing the asking prices of the Phase backs in the 6-8k mark.
    I bought my H3DII 39 for 4500 and sure, it's fixed to this one body, yet at these prices I got myself a back for 2k less than the Phase and a free body to fit it to?

    I faced the P25 off with the 5D3 and it matched the IQ in pretty much every single way. Yet the Canon body can do so much more than the back (disregarding video but considering ISO performance, rear screen etc).
    I saw recently a H3DII 50, with the 35-90, 150 and 120 macro. less than 2000 actuations on the body fail to catch a buyer at 10k.

    I understand the market is small for MF but there appears to be this huge disparity between what someone wants to sell for and what buyers are prepared to pay?

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    I'm not sure that I understand why it's assumed that digital backs should now be cheap just because DSLR's can match the resolution. It seems to me to be like saying that a Porsche Carrera should be cheaper because a Suburu WRX can go as fast, has 4 wheel drive, is better in the snow and has more aftermarket tuning options and costs less. If you want a Porsche, it doesn't work that way.

    Now if nobody WANTS a medium format back any more, well then you might see the market pricing change as witnessed by the asking/selling prices of backs 2-3 generations old.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    You asked so many questions in one single post. It seems that you are really frustrated with the market, but I understand you, I went through the same situation, too.
    I'll try to answer you just to your first question. I think Hasselblad is cheaper on the second hand market because their upgrade program is not attractive.

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post

    Now if nobody WANTS a medium format back any more, well then you might see the market pricing change as witnessed by the asking/selling prices of backs 2-3 generations old.
    Well this is the thing. I've now been in this market for about 3 years. I'm seeing the same sellers selling the same back for the same price they did two years ago. It appears they aren't selling them. At all.

    I see listings on ebay start and end without a buyer. Auctions not making a reserve price etc all for now considerably old tech. Y'know, things wear out and break or just age.

    Like there's this going on:

    Seller: I have this and I want this for it.
    Buyer: It's only worth this to me though.
    Seller: It's worth much more.
    Buyer: No it isn't. Or else it would sell.
    Seller: Screw you I'll keep in then and let it lose more value.

    Like there's some sort of crazy seller thought process I'm not privy to?

    Something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay, surely. It seems with MF backs all too often folks go in at 8k to drop it down to 6000 within weeks. Almost as if they went in and paid full rate and can't handle the thought of how much money they lost?

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    It seems to me that the solution to your concern is simple ... wait ...

    If someone really wants to sell, they'll sell at what is a comfortable/acceptable price at the time of the sale. It wasn't so long ago that people were taking a bath on high end backs to either cash out or move to a DSLR.

    There really is no disturbance to the force of economics with digital backs. Remember that the supply of good used backs is finite and so arguably more robust than that of a bigger mass market. If there are more sellers then I'm sure that the price would be driven down because someone will ultimately want to sell.

    My $0.02 ... wait long enough and it'll be $0.01
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    I'm not sure I understand 100%, but I'll chime in. I use a P45+, as for me, there are no alternatives for the money. Even for 15K and higher, options are limited if any.

    In the real pro photog world, I would say only 15-25% use a medium format system, with the rest using 35mm and getting by fine. This percentage of digital medium format users is probably on the slow decline as 35mm systems improve, but the quality over 35mm does and will always remain in medium formats favour.

    You say a digital back is only worth what someone is willing to pay, and that is true to an extent. But for me, if I was to upgrade to say an IQ160 or IQ180, having a P45+ as a backup minimum, a very useful back in it's own right, through to a being superlative long exposure king. The answer is simple compared to selling it cheap as chips.

    As has been mentioned many times before, until a manufacturer produces a back equivalent to, or better than the P45+ in long exposures, prices will remain fairly consistent.

    They aren't being produced any longer, so those who have them can sell for whatever they deem fit, not the buyer.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Bottom line it's the only game in town that will do up to a one hour exposure. That right there creates demand even if its the only factor. A lot of shooters doing night sky, arch and other type of work that requires up to a hour than that is there only choice. A P25 and P30 plus maybe 25 minutes and you still may get some noise I tried 35 minutes on a P30 plus, Jack shot the P 45 on the same night for a hour and his files looked cleaner.
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Having joined the MFD bandwagon a few days ago but having learned about it for years and "scouting" a P45+ for weeks past, as Guy say, it has one BIG advantage : long exposures.

    Clean base ISO files is a plus, but then again many backs do. H3DII, if you can live with the low isos are fine but highly limiting on what you can do. They are old sensors, rubish at two stops over base ISO and have limited use.

    P45+ on the other hand, can do high ISO's "downgrading" the resolution, can do 1 hour long exposure. Its a very flexible back even in todays world. Add 1.1 crop factor to boot and its quite nice back to have.

    Unless you have a real unpopular mount ( Contax 645 comes to mind - very low userbase that are willing to spend 10k on a digital back ) , they fly fast.

    Every P45+ that I've seen for sale this just dissapear in hours / days.

    The longest to sell that I've seen was in Germany, known dealer, that was selling a P45+ for Contax and it started selling it at 11.500 usd and lowered it every week. Once it hit the 10.000 usd, it was sold in a heartbeat.

    They are great backs with great flexibility.

    Can a dSLR do more ? oh yes, much more flexible, ISO range is nowhere near, fps and all that jazz. But when you want that quality, that 3D feel, that "special something", you have to go MF.

    But... Horses for Courses

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Here are some more thoughts coming from a former user of a P45+ for almost 4 years.

    I traded mine in for a IQ160. Looked at the P65+ for less but just knew I had to have the LCD since I wanted to move to a tech camera.

    I had one of the P45+'s that didn't go to 1 hour. It had to be physically upgraded by Phase One, which was done under my value add warranty. Note to buyers, since all P45+'s are used now and most are out of warranty, make sure the back you are purchasing will take the latest firmware. There were quite a few that would not and you have to have the firmware to get to 1 hour. This is one reason to stay with a dealer on a used purchase as they can test this for you.

    As for the 1 hour:

    Well, I wanted it for night work, as my longest day shots are around 30 seconds and I can easily get there with my 160 at 50 iso. Working with the P45+ at night was much more limiting than I originally thought. Mainly since I was not carrying a laptop, and could not shoot tethered. If you shoot for 1 hour the back has to be able to stay on for an additional hour for the necessary dark frame. You will get about 2.5 hours on a normal phase battery. The P45+ can take the canon external charger however so in theory you can go longer.

    File are clean, amazingly clean at 50 iso, anything higher and you start getting noise.

    Temperature, many this will be a big surprise, you are only going to get a clean 1 hours shot in temperatures under about 70 degrees F. If you go longer in higher temps the back will get too hot and you pick up a red cast with a lot of noise. I used to have the actual chart from Phase one, but I can't find anymore. Living in Arkansas, and the Southwest, this eliminated me from using the P45+ for almost 7 months of the year since our night temps will usually stay warmer than the 70 degrees F. It's great in fall and winter, but that was about it. You can still pull a good 30 minute exposure up to around 80 degrees F. Humidity also plays a big issue and Arkansas, has plenty. This issue of temperature never gets brought up, so I did want to mention it.

    Stack vs single long frame, I long ago switched to stacking for my night work. I work with the moon and prefer to have a 1/2 to 3/4 moon on the nights I work. This gives the sky a much more pleasing color, usually a shade of blue. If you work with no moon, you always pick up a yellow cast to the sky due to the light pollution. This is harder than you think to fix as the stars or trails will also be altered when you try to work on the sky. Stacking give you a much much larger range of stars. You can read plenty about this on the web. It's a much more involved workflow but in the long long pays off. IF you stack with a P45+, the dark frame will get in the way and create gapping. You can get around it with software but it adds more to the workflow. You can't turn the noise exposure noise reduction off. Plus there is no remote I know of sold that has a inter voltmeter that will let you set up a series of exposures, i.e. 30" exposures for 40 minutes for the DF body. So when I realized Stacking was where I wanted to go, the DF/P45+ became less of a issue.

    Wind, clouds, planes, etc. Stacking allows you to have more control over the shooting. You can still work at night even with a breeze as more than likely one of the stacks will have nominal wind pollution and can become the base for the rest. Planes, there are out there and fly every night and can become very hard to get rid of in a singe long frame.

    Lenses, you will get the best night view with a lens wide open. So a F2.8 lens is better than an F3.5. Plus most of the wides from Mamiya, 35mm, 45mm and 28mm are terrible wide open. You will end up cropping up so much of the image you might as well have started with a 35mm. You still have issues like CA and even worse Coma. Capture ONe will do a good job on CA, but I have yet to find anything that really takes out coma. You can find a pretty decent 35mm wide angle @ F2.8, it may take a few, but there are more out there. I never could find a good Medium format lens for this. Briefly though about using my Rodenstock 28mm on my P45+, but all the shutter release and the rest, I figured out not worth it.

    These are just one person's options, but if you are only thinking about long exposures for a P45+, I would rather have a 5D MKIII or D600. The rest of the abilities of the IQ series make the gap worth it for me. I am still grateful that Phase One had the upgrade program for the P45+ to IQ series other wise I would not have made the jump.

    Paul

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    Well this is the thing. I've now been in this market for about 3 years. I'm seeing the same sellers selling the same back for the same price they did two years ago. It appears they aren't selling them. At all.

    I see listings on ebay start and end without a buyer. Auctions not making a reserve price etc all for now considerably old tech. Y'know, things wear out and break or just age.

    Like there's this going on:

    Seller: I have this and I want this for it.
    Buyer: It's only worth this to me though.
    Seller: It's worth much more.
    Buyer: No it isn't. Or else it would sell.
    Seller: Screw you I'll keep in then and let it lose more value.

    Like there's some sort of crazy seller thought process I'm not privy to?

    Something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay, surely. It seems with MF backs all too often folks go in at 8k to drop it down to 6000 within weeks. Almost as if they went in and paid full rate and can't handle the thought of how much money they lost?
    You sound bitter. Doesn't the seller have just as much right to set a price? And your hypothesis is really not correct. Why should I sell something just because at this particular time the buyer is looking for a deal? If I put one of my compound microscopes on the market for $150,000, should I expect an immediate buyer? Should I just take any offer? If I can wait, why not wait?

    I am not sure I agree with your "take it or leave it" philosophy.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    I don't really follow eBay sales. They are a fairly sporadic indicator of value. A lot of folks who are looking to spend 10-40k on a digital back want to do so from a guaranteed vendor (to insure condition is accurate, to avoid hassle, to allow alternative payment methods like leasing, to avoid fraud, to provide local support, to include training, to get new rather than used/questionable accessories etc etc etc), so the market (which is already small in general) that goes to eBay is not large enough to smooth out variations from sale to sale.

    I think you also witness a bit of illogic driven by human emotion here. A P45+ owner may be in a situation where they have a bit of cognitive dissidence. On one hand they keep hearing that, e.g. the D800 is "almost as good" and costs a lot less and feel silly/guilty for having such an "overpriced" system. But then when it comes time to actually part with their back they remember the quality of the images it produces, it's incredible reliability, how much they enjoy using it with XYZ body, and they do some searching for what it would cost them to buy a P45+ today and realize they can't part with it. So they put it on eBay at a price they know eBay-market customers won't pay, and thereby satisfy both sides of their internal struggle.

    Regarding the P45+: if you want long exposure and a nearly indestructible chassis and integrated/easy support for tech cameras, view cameras, and at least one (if not several depending on the mount) SLR cameras then it is the absolute king.

    Phase ran out of sensors in their sales inventory this year. We sold every one we had left inside of two weeks of that happening. Now the only ones we will have in inventory to sell are will be from customers upgrading their 45+ backs. We will be able to give such owners a great trade-in value because we know we'll be able to sell those P45+ backs for a good price.

    As for why other 39mp backs don't sell for as much? I've always been a strong market believer; the free market isn't a perfect indicator of value, but it's the best one you can find. If customers found the other 39mp backs to be equal to the P45+ then they would sell for the same price on the open market.

    Software for the 45+ (Capture One), long exposure, open platform (use it on any body whether borrowed/begged/stolen/rented; it's not locked to a specific body) support, chassis design/durability, interface simplicity/speed, integrated battery for easy integration to tech cameras all make the P45+ a really great back. I suspect it will hold very good value for a while to come and will only drop significantly if/when there is a viable alternative.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Plus there is no remote I know of sold that has a inter voltmeter that will let you set up a series of exposures, i.e. 30" exposures for 40 minutes for the DF body. So when I realized Stacking was where I wanted to go, the DF/P45+ became less of a issue.
    The DF has an intervalometer built in. Just tap the self timer button twice.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I had one of the P45+'s that didn't go to 1 hour. It had to be physically upgraded by Phase One, which was done under my value add warranty. Note to buyers, since all P45+'s are used now and most are out of warranty, make sure the back you are purchasing will take the latest firmware. There were quite a few that would not and you have to have the firmware to get to 1 hour. This is one reason to stay with a dealer on a used purchase as they can test this for you.
    A good sign that you're buying from a good dealer: they know what the heck Paul is talking about.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I'm not sure that I understand why it's assumed that digital backs should now be cheap just because DSLR's can match the resolution. It seems to me to be like saying that a Porsche Carrera should be cheaper because a Suburu WRX can go as fast, has 4 wheel drive, is better in the snow and has more aftermarket tuning options and costs less. If you want a Porsche, it doesn't work that way.

    Now if nobody WANTS a medium format back any more, well then you might see the market pricing change as witnessed by the asking/selling prices of backs 2-3 generations old.
    I think that assumption comes from the fact that the newer and soon to be released DSLR's do in fact, match MFD, thus contributing to the supply and demand aspect. Your Porsche analogy is accurate, but if people buy on a name only, then the price of MFD doesn't matter anyway. But at least with the Porsche, you get what you pay for!

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    As for the 1 hour:

    Well, I wanted it for night work, as my longest day shots are around 30 seconds and I can easily get there with my 160 at 50 iso. Working with the P45+ at night was much more limiting than I originally thought. Mainly since I was not carrying a laptop, and could not shoot tethered. If you shoot for 1 hour the back has to be able to stay on for an additional hour for the necessary dark frame. You will get about 2.5 hours on a normal phase battery. The P45+ can take the canon external charger however so in theory you can go longer.
    Here is the chart. Note it was made when Capture One 4 was the "norm" and in Capture One 7 the improved noise reduction (especially reduced bleed in color noise reduction and better single pixel noise reduction) means you can go a bit higher than these times. But I have not done any comprehensive tests to say exactly how much longer; my feeling is around 20% longer.

    95F---13min
    84F---20min
    73F---30min
    63F---60min
    52F---90min
    41F---120min*
    30F---180min*
    -13F---17 hours :-)*

    *In practice the cold temperature (which shortens battery life) and long exposure means you'd want to use something other than a standard battery. This could include a tethered computer providing FW power, a powered hub providing FW power, one of the battery/power Hassy recommends for their backs, or the canon external device that Paul refers to.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    (...)
    Regarding the P45+:
    Software for the 45+ (Capture One), long exposure, open platform (use it on any body whether borrowed/begged/stolen/rented; it's not locked to a specific body) support, chassis design/durability, interface simplicity/speed, integrated battery for easy integration to tech cameras all make the P45+ a really great back. I suspect it will hold very good value for a while to come and will only drop significantly if/when there is a viable alternative.
    Doug,

    Your post makes sense all but one thing to me: open platform on any body? Just used a P45+ couple of times but it was "locked" to a specific mount ( Hasselblad in that case ).

    All the others I saw the same - so really not open.

    If you buy one with Contax mount, you are stick with Contax - and I mistaken ? Sorry if I am, just curious here.

    I asked Phase One Portugal about this and they confirmed it to me and that also, the mount change ( whilst possible ) on older backs is economically unrealistic - Phase One Denmark ask 3 to 5k euros for it...

    So only good when you are switching backs or upgrading it.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Doug, I couldn't agree more with you on the dealer issue.

    Still owe you one huge debt of gratitude in cluing me towards the right fix.

    Paul

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by proenca View Post
    Doug,

    Your post makes sense all but one thing to me: open platform on any body? Just used a P45+ couple of times but it was "locked" to a specific mount ( Hasselblad in that case ).

    All the others I saw the same - so really not open.

    If you buy one with Contax mount, you are stick with Contax - and I mistaken ? Sorry if I am, just curious here.

    I asked Phase One Portugal about this and they confirmed it to me and that also, the mount change ( whilst possible ) on older backs is economically unrealistic - Phase One Denmark ask 3 to 5k euros for it...

    So only good when you are switching backs or upgrading it.
    Technically that is correct there is a cost to the mount change. But look at it this way your fully vested in lets say Phase mount and want to switch to a H mount you dont have to sell your back and repurchase in that mount. You can make a change for a fee of course. Also look at it another way you find a good used back in a mount you cant use given maybe the fee to change and the back price it actually maybe worth going that route as well. Frankly I think Phase words that wrong with the open platform slogan. Sure its open platform but really what it is that it comes in a diverse amount of mounts and not a single brand specific mount. Maybe a better word than saying open platform but not sure what that would be. But it and its brands are the only ones that can say open platform as it is not SINGLE specific tied to a brand name you can purchase in other mounts. Geez that all sounds confusing as hell. LOL
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Doug on the intervoltmeter on the DF, it thought it only worked in manual mode, where you longest exposure could be 30 seconds, so if you needed 2 minutes or 60 seconds it would no longer function. The intervoltmeter controlled only the series, but still needed the camera for the shutter time. I used 30 seconds on my example which was my mistake. You need really both the intervoltmeter and the interval timer to allow multiple exposures i.e. like the Canon or Nikon remotes.

    I may be totally wrong on that and it's good to know.

    But back when I switched over, the only solution I could find was to take the Mamiya coiled remote and do some wiring to make it work with the Canon style intervoltmeter.

    This BTW is the same shortfall Nikon has in their implementation on the intervoltmeter/interval timers in the body you can't use them together and they won't work in bulb mode, examples D800, D600.

    Thanks for the chart on temps. I was off by 7 degrees on the 1 hour. And it makes a huge difference.

    Paul

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by proenca View Post
    Doug,
    If you buy one with Contax mount, you are stick with Contax - and I mistaken ? Sorry if I am, just curious here.

    I asked Phase One Portugal about this and they confirmed it to me and that also, the mount change ( whilst possible ) on older backs is economically unrealistic - Phase One Denmark ask 3 to 5k euros for it...
    Sorry if this was unclear. I mean that within the mount you can change to any body (of that mount). With other brands the back and body are locked arbitrarily together and you cannot use your back with another body (as comes in hand for backups, replacements, or upgrading to a more recent body).

    With a Contax mount back any Contax 645 body ever made will work with any Phase One Contax mount back. Likewise any M mount back will work with any M mount body.

    An H3D-39 digital back will not work on an H4 body, nor even another H3D body unless they have been "matched" (unlocked) at the factory.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Sorry if this was unclear. I mean that within the mount you can change to any body (of that mount). With other brands the back and body are locked arbitrarily together and you cannot use your back with another body (as comes in hand for backups, replacements, or upgrading to a more recent body).

    With a Contax mount back any Contax 645 body ever made will work with any Phase One Contax mount back. Likewise any M mount back will work with any M mount body.

    An H3D-39 digital back will not work on an H4 body, nor even another H3D body unless they have been "matched" (unlocked) at the factory.
    Thanks for the explanation : true, forgot about that malarky of "matching" backs indeed, once you have a P45+ of X mount, you can mount on every X camera of that that mount !

    Still, the P45+ is a great mount with features that were ground breaking when it was released, make it a very actual and updated mount today.

    Best,
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    You sound bitter. Doesn't the seller have just as much right to set a price? And your hypothesis is really not correct. Why should I sell something just because at this particular time the buyer is looking for a deal? If I put one of my compound microscopes on the market for $150,000, should I expect an immediate buyer? Should I just take any offer? If I can wait, why not wait?

    I am not sure I agree with your "take it or leave it" philosophy.
    I'm not bitter. Honestly, I'm perfectly happy shooting the H3DII 39, H1 film. I have a 5D3 and a 1DX. I'm 'kitted out' so to speak and happy.

    But, it doesn't stop me looking at other stuff, prices relative to each other. I've just jumped back into film so I'm hawking around for film backs and the like. I just see Hassy stuff go for X amount, then I see Phase and Leaf stuff, P30, P45, Aptus 31mp backs etc all sit there unsold for what appears to me to be a terribly high price.

    When I had a leaf aptus back it needed to go back to leaf for an IR sensor and calibration. The P25 back I had suffered quite severe blooming. It wasn't until I got the H3DII 39 that I thought I'd got something worth the money.

    When I see listings for backs on Getdpi and LL often it seems to be the same sellers claiming it to be a used studio back. Nobody bites in the thread. It disappears and then 6 months later it pops up again. Same price, no takers.

    The was one incidence when I saw a P45 (non plus) back online for 7500, it sold for 5400. Not an auction, an agreed sale.

    I'm just trying to understand the mentality that's all.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Doug on the intervoltmeter on the DF, it thought it only worked in manual mode, where you longest exposure could be 30 seconds, so if you needed 2 minutes or 60 seconds it would no longer function. The intervoltmeter controlled only the series, but still needed the camera for the shutter time. I used 30 seconds on my example which was my mistake. You need really both the intervoltmeter and the interval timer to allow multiple exposures i.e. like the Canon or Nikon remotes.

    I may be totally wrong on that and it's good to know.
    No you're right. I had forgotten that (forgive me, it is a bit obscure even for me).

    You can only use the built in intervelometer for shorter shutters speeds.

    However, the time machine guy will be glad to take a P1 Cable release and modify it for a DF. And since the DF itself can be set to shutter speeds up to 60 minutes long you could make this work.

    I have one and would sell it to you, but only at a price you won't bite at because I know that once it comes down to it I don't want to part with it.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    However, the time machine guy will be glad to take a P1 Cable release and modify it for a DF. And since the DF itself can be set to shutter speeds up to 60 minutes long you could make this work.

    I have one and would sell it to you, but only at a price you won't bite at because I know that once it comes down to it I don't want to part with it.
    Damn it Doug, now there's something else I need to buy that'll work with all of my gear! I've been looking at building a cable for triggertrap for the DF but the time machine looks a more robust solution for use in the field.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bottom line it's the only game in town that will do up to a one hour exposure. That right there creates demand even if its the only factor. A lot of shooters doing night sky, arch and other type of work that requires up to a hour than that is there only choice. A P25 and P30 plus maybe 25 minutes and you still may get some noise I tried 35 minutes on a P30 plus, Jack shot the P 45 on the same night for a hour and his files looked cleaner.
    I had a discussion this weekend with a photographer I know who is a long exposure specialist and who now shoots with a P25+ but originally used a P45+ extensively. (Long story involving MFDB & deep water ... RIP). His experience mirrors yours in that the P45+ does produce cleaner and more elastic files than the P25+ when shooting at base ISO and for longer. On paper they are all xpose+ backs but as Doug has also stated before they do perform differently. I know that my own P25+ will certainly easily shoot 15+ min clean files but beyond that its a gradual quality fall off. However, it is way cleaner at 30mins than my IQ160 at 2+ mins.

    Bottom line - P45+ is still very desirable (heck, I still want one myself).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    If and when it will or can be replaced by a new Dalsa sensor than it will still demand a high value . Its now being off the new market it becomes a supply and demand issue. Heck we may see prices go up on a P45 Plus. But if a new Dalsa sensor it may drop to the floor on value. Its kind of a risky buy since we do not know what is next but lets face it Phase is not blind either and they know they need to replace it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    That is something I do not understand. While the Hasselblads are very expensive in Germany the PhaseOne DBs are found sometimes for good value.

    I found this, but I am not sure if there is a big difference between P45 and 45+?

    I was first interested in it but then found the complete H3- set.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    I'm just trying to understand the mentality that's all.
    Chris, maybe its just me but I find all this long exposure rubbish being the reason for high prices to be very centralised to gear geek (and I include myself) forums like this.

    IMO the main reason people are asking so much for these backs is once upon a time the owner paid around 30,000 (inc VAT) for the back and they expect more than the 5K people are willing to pay. Remember the P45+ was once Phase Ones's top shelf back, just like the IQ180 today.

    P45+ and H39 may have the same chip but the P45+ has only just been discontinued while the H3 seems ancient in comparision now we have the H5.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotom View Post
    That is something I do not understand. While the Hasselblads are very expensive in Germany the PhaseOne DBs are found sometimes for good value.

    I found this, but I am not sure if there is a big difference between P45 and 45+?
    Devil is in the details.

    P45+ maxes at 1 hour
    P45 maxes out at "several minutes"

    Also has a few other improvements (e.g. moderately better screen), but the long exposure seems most relevant to the open market price difference.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    As a second hand back I do think the P45+ is a bit overpriced compared to alternatives (Leaf 33 megapixel backs for example), but if you do need long exposures it's the way to go, and the good repuation concerning reliability is a plus too.

    Overpriced to me that is, for my uses a Dalsa-based Leaf back with more accurate color, better tech cam integration and better LCD is both a better and cheaper choice.

    I think like Gareth though, that the main reason the price is higher is not long exposures, but because it is "new". Many/most of the alternatives are older backs, and older are cheaper. The best deals for us that like it cheap can often be had for the first generation backs of a new sensor.

  31. #31
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    As a second hand back I do think the P45+ is a bit overpriced compared to alternatives (Leaf 33 megapixel backs for example), but if you do need long exposures it's the way to go, and the good repuation concerning reliability is a plus too.

    Overpriced to me that is, for my uses a Dalsa-based Leaf back with more accurate color, better tech cam integration and better LCD is both a better and cheaper choice.

    I think like Gareth though, that the main reason the price is higher is not long exposures, but because it is "new". Many/most of the alternatives are older backs, and older are cheaper. The best deals for us that like it cheap can often be had for the first generation backs of a new sensor.
    The problem with any second hand back is warranty, or lack of.

    Not that I've heard that Mamiya / Leaf backs are unreliable of some sort, but "on paper" I was afraid. Until recently I was pondering about buying either a p45+ or a Aptus 75S.

    Problem was :

    Aptus 75S : the vent thing. vents "suck" air and that means dirt and dust. perhaps its 100% unfounded but I coudlnt stop worrying about it.

    P45+ : the price vs Aptus. Easy to get an Aptus 75S for 4.5k euros. P45+ is hard to get one for less than 7k euros. On the plus side, its durability its almost legendary, nice software, simple OS, simple menus, great long exposures.

    So the prices are a bit steep. But again, if I'm buying a very expensive digital back without warranty, I'd like to buy the reliable one or at the very least, the one with bullet proof reputation.
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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    The was one incidence when I saw a P45 (non plus) back online for 7500, it sold for 5400. Not an auction, an agreed sale.

    I'm just trying to understand the mentality that's all.
    I always wonder whether a back (or other item) sells at the asking price. There are a number of items that I couldn't afford at listed price that sold for less than I could believe.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    My friend, a well known food photographer in the Bay replaced his P45+ with a Hasselblad H4D50 and couldn't be any happier. The files from the H are much more pleasing to his, and my eyes than anything from the P45+/Hassy V combo.

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    Re: Is the P45+ back now over rated / over hyped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    I always wonder whether a back (or other item) sells at the asking price. There are a number of items that I couldn't afford at listed price that sold for less than I could believe.
    Make an offer. If its sensible, seller might take it.

    I sold my Noctilux 0.95asph here together with my 24mm Elmarit because the buyer made me a nice offer and I prefered to sell both of the lens to one person instead of dealing with two people ; he got both at a nice price, I got less hassle and what I wanted.

    I also made an offer ( 10.500 euros ) for a mint Leica S2 + Leica S 70mm. It was accepted. Seller was happy and I'm very happy.

    When buying and selling really expensive stuff ( rare lens, digital backs, medium format digital, etc ) the prospect buyers list is on the scarce side. So try your luck, it might pay off
    Leica M9 | 50mm Summilux ASPH | www.proenca.eu

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