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Pentax 645Z and the price of MF

Swissblad

Well-known member
I just saw a demo model Pentax 645Z with 50mm lens on sale at my LCS for ≈ $7k.

If I recall what the Hassi H series cost…. this is a absolute steal.

The question is whether this is a sign that MF will become affordable for the amateur on a budget - or - whether that train has left the stain and everybody has jumped on the D810, 5DMk etc bandwagon…?

Interesting times - and a bravo for Pentax/Sony for this development.
 

Chris Giles

New member
Once you factor in the cost of (new) lenses the Pentax option isn't such a steal. But I agree there's much less money to find as an entry point. Usually if you wanted to go mf on a budget you'd have to buy used. Not so now.

I personally think we're on the cusp of something special, but I feel that it'll come from an unexpected place. Medium Format is becoming cool with the mainstream consumer and whenever there is a mainstream pickup other manufacturers see it as an additional revenue stream.

With DSLR sales falling overall, the need to keep the bottom line up drives technology forward. I see several new cameras with a large sensor within the next few years. Compact cameras now have 35mm sensors, it isn't a silly notion to assume the upsizing will continue.
 

gazwas

Active member
I think perfect examples of that is in the lighting industry where Profoto and Broncolor seem to have changed track on which end of the market they now pitch their products. Who would have imagined 5 years ago Profoto would be selling a range of TTL lights aimed at strobist photographers and Broncolor releasing a monolight with all the technology and reliability as its uber expensive flash packs?

We just need Phase and Hasselbald (and a sensor developer) to wake up to this market and develop a MFD system for the masses as we all shot in the days of film. A MF camera then was £3K not £33k.

We can all but dream.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Digital Transitions / Team Phase One already offers brand new Credo 40 kits at $13k with a lens. Other options like a new P45+ for 10k (back only) and a variety of pre-owned digital backs (since the sensor is separate from the body and the back itself does not wear and tear and can be expected to work for well over a decade) at lower than 10k, with warranty, new accessories and dealer support.

Considering the advantages over the 645Z I think that these are a reasonable price delta for many clients. I don't expect Team Phase One to move much lower in price as our sales have only increased since the launch of the 645Z, presumably because the more people look into and consider medium format the more people Phase One has the chance to work with.
 
I think the Canon 5DS/R made the recent crash of second-hand prices of digital backs since Feb 2015.



The previous wave was the Nikon D800/E back in 2012 (which forced the second-hand price of the Hasselblad H4D-40 to crash at eBay).

Of course the Pentax 645Z hurt the IQ250/H5D-50C a lot, but the dominant factor would always be the advancement in the 35mm format.
 
Once you factor in the cost of (new) lenses the Pentax option isn't such a steal.
You're not forced to buy the new "digital" lenses, and the old ones can be bought used or imported for even less than their already reasonable "new" prices.

We don't seem to have tests optically comparing the Pentax lenses to those on other systems, but just going on new prices - $1,500 for the Pentax 120mm macro vs. ~$4,300 Phamiya and $5,500 Hassy 120mm macros - I'm willing to believe that those lenses might be a bit better in some performance aspect, just not 3.5x the price better. Even used, there will still be a not-insignificant price differential.

When comparing new lenses, the Pentax 28-45mm features a faster average aperture of f/4.5 and stabilization over the Hasselblad 35-90mm f/4-5.6 and SK 40-80mm f/4-5.6 wide zooms at nearly half the price, and while it doesn't feature a leaf shutter, you could make the case that you don't necessarily need one for landscapes. The owners of this lens on PentaxForums claim that it's sharp straight from wide open aperture, so the competitors have some proving to do.
 

Chris Giles

New member
You're not forced to buy the new "digital" lenses, and the old ones can be bought used or imported for even less than their already reasonable "new" prices.

We don't seem to have tests optically comparing the Pentax lenses to those on other systems, but just going on new prices - $1,500 for the Pentax 120mm macro vs. ~$4,300 Phamiya and $5,500 Hassy 120mm macros - I'm willing to believe that those lenses might be a bit better in some performance aspect, just not 3.5x the price better. Even used, there will still be a not-insignificant price differential.

When comparing new lenses, the Pentax 28-45mm features a faster average aperture of f/4.5 and stabilization over the Hasselblad 35-90mm f/4-5.6 and SK 40-80mm f/4-5.6 wide zooms at nearly half the price, and while it doesn't feature a leaf shutter, you could make the case that you don't necessarily need one for landscapes.
This is totally true.

All my 645z lenses are used and are just stunning. To the point that I can't see why people take issue with lenses from the film era as they're just as good to my eyes.

I also found out recently that the 25mm and the 28-45mm are the widest lenses available, more so than anything from Phase and Hasselblad. That took me by surprise, I don't know why it did.

(edit: turns out I forgot about the HCD 24mm) doh!
 
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This is totally true.I also found out recently that the 25mm and the 28-45mm are the widest lenses available, more so than anything from Phase and Hasselblad. That took me by surprise, I don't know why it did.
From what I understand, the 28-45mm is tailored to the 44x33mm sensor of the 645Z, so 28mm and 35mm are both FoV equivalent to around 22mm as you would get on a Canon, assuming you have a full-frame 645 back. Wider lenses include the Mamiya 28mm and Hass 24mm*, but they have a reputation for not really being sharp, most people here use em as a case as to why you should go the tech cam route if you're a wide-angle junkie.

*for crop sensors only

So... I wouldn't say they are the widest available, Leica has it's 24mm which is wider-still than the Pentax 25mm and helped by the 1mm wider sensor, and it certainly must be the better lens too**.

**not supported by evidence, as is everything Leica.
 

jerome_m

Member
Wider lenses include the Mamiya 28mm and Hass 24mm*, but they have a reputation for not really being sharp, most people here use em as a case as to why you should go the tech cam route if you're a wide-angle junkie.

The Hasselblad HCD 24mm and HCD 28mm lenses are amongst the sharpest lenses available on the market. I would imagine that the 28mm from Mamiya and Schneider are just as fine, but I have not tested them personally. Leica also has a 24mm for their S cameras, BTW.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
The wider lenses from Phase/Mamiya drove many including my self to a tech camera.

28mm has never been a great lens wide open, and only really starts to get good in the corners by F11 (on some versions ) and F14 on the two I owned. Nothing wrong with F11, but my lens still did had coma aberration even at F11 and this in daylight this causes smearing of the edges, very evident in foliage and at night butterfly wings on stars, making the edges not useable. Thus my 28's (I owned two of them), were better 35mm lenses. If you use filters, the 28 as any wide with a fixed tulip and curved outer element poses a lot of problems unless a system like the Lee can be adopted to it.

The 35mm, (owned 3 of them) still have the "best" one. Not bad but still a bit soft not smeared, in the corners and just can't get to the level of details that a Schneider 35XL can.

Neither of these lenses will allow movements, you can set them up for a nodal pan, (of which I did many), the need to be level with camera always posed an issue.

As for the prices, the only thing that will drive Phase One into a realistic price point for the CMOS backs, is competition and it's pretty obvious that the 645z and 50c have not been enough yet to do anything. That may change over time. To purchase a Credo 40/80mm for 134K, I just don't see any advantage to that for landscape work, possible if you are a studio shooter as you will have an LS lens.

Phase seems to have a very good market in the far east, China, Japan, etc. and that market is huge, and more than likely will continue to drive the price points for years to come.

I also don't the Canon 50MP sensor changing the game. But it's yet to ship and not too much has is known about it.

What has hindered Phase the most seems to be their current camera body, which is overpriced and not very feature rich when compared to others. This will all change later this year when the "new" body is announced. Most shooters still don't use tech solutions, instead prefer a body with no LCC issues. So I figure for the rest of this year, once the body ships Phase will do just fine. Next year more than likely they will continue with full frame CMOS at the same price structure, so it will not be an easy move.

Phase has also could care less that a 160, which cost in the 39K range, just sold for 11K on ebay. I care as that it a huge hit for someone. Where as the price of the 250 at 22K is tempting :)

Paul
 
The Hasselblad HCD 24mm and HCD 28mm lenses are amongst the sharpest lenses available on the market. I would imagine that the 28mm from Mamiya and Schneider are just as fine, but I have not tested them personally. Leica also has a 24mm for their S cameras, BTW.
Well, even if it is a great lens, the HCD 24mm could also buy you an inexpensive tech cam and a Schneider wide for about the same price and you can use your H back on it with movements. Already mentioned the Leica.

SLR wide angles are generally a poor spot because of the difficulty of having to clear such a huge mirror box, and so a lot of the price and design work actually goes into making them able to mount on your camera. Don't forget that 24mm by definition implies that the focal point of the lens should be 24mm away from the sensor, which in practice is not even half-way through the mirror box (61.63mm). They have to work some scary voodoo to capture a wide field of view and send it over a longer lens group.
 
The Z is the answer IMO, and it did push prices down a lot. Remember the rebate deals pre-xmas last year on H cameras? They got close to or matched the Z, which of course was with that old 40mp CCD sensor. Studio photographers only. I'd take a 645D over the Hassy just for the better screen, focal plane shutter, and cheaper glass, for still half the price of the on-rebate H4D.

There is also this pervasive myth that older A, FA, and 67 Pentax lenses are so old and unusable that you MUST buy the current line up. This is ridiculous, come on. First of all even if they're not amazing wide open and you require ultimate sharpness, stop down! Also, the lenses in my experience are great! Not every one, but most. I really like the 75mm FA. It's renders to me like a Planar. The telephotos are pretty sweet too. My current fav that I'm using on a 645Z is the 75mm 2.8 AL from the 67 system. Focuses very close, and renders in a lovely way. I haven't compared them to H lenses or Schneider LS optics, which I'm sure have some advantages. But also some huge disadvantages like giant gaping holes in your bank account, so you better be sure it's going to return that investment.

Speaking of investments, there are some "sold listings" for H4D-60s on fleabay for under $10k. That's gotta hurt. These things are not investments. They are so expensive that most people can't afford them, and when tech moves forward their value tumbles and tumbles. Stores are even reluctant to take them on trade sometimes because of reliability issues. Phase and Hassy are gonna be themselves though, and are not going to try to be competitive as long as the rental houses keep using them exclusively.

35mm's effect on prices is debatable. I could see it making things MORE expensive as larger sensor cameras are moved to an even more specialized market. I'm just not sure. I do think that medium format users know that many of the advantages are inherent in the larger format and tools themselves, and that throwing more megapickles in a 35mm frame is about the same as using a slower film. Velvia 50 in 35mm did not replace Velvia 50 in 120 and up. Just not the same hamburger.

I'm probably the exception in this forum that isn't trying to ebb every once of resolution out of my sensor, working in wedding, portrait, and reportage. But those are big areas of photography too, so it's a valid perspective.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
I hope systems like the 645Z drive down prices, especially on second hand CCD backs. Although the Sony CMOS sensors are great (I have a D800E and an A7R...also have a D810 coming in the mail today...this point has also been beaten to death in other threads), the other older CCD backs still take great images. I've owned a D800E for as long as I've owned my H4D-40, and my favorite images I've taken with the Hassy. The Hassy I have may not have the advantages of CMOS, but I'm well aware of it's limitations and prefer shooting with it over the Nikon for my landscape work. I'd happily pick up a second hand IQ160 (esp for $11k!) or 180 for my landscape work in the future once I have the $$.

The 645Z is really attractive for sure. People have been taking great images with it and if I were entering the MF market right now I'd probably start there.

Speaking of wide angles, the only thing that has really peaked my interest in 35mm world lately is the new Canon 11-24mm. Preliminary reviews are very very positive (sharp, low distortion, etc). Thinking about picking one up and throwing it on the A7R.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Digital Transitions / Team Phase One already offers brand new Credo 40 kits at $13k with a lens.
So, for about 4 grand more, I can get an older 40MP CCD rather than a state-of-the-art 50MP CMOS. I can also get a camera body that is long in the tooth.

I am glad Phase is doing well. We always need choices. But when do they take some of that revenue and invest in a camera platform to replace the DF+? Yes, I understand that is soon, but it has been soon for years now. I guess I would not mind dropping an extra $4K if I thought I was getting something at least on par to the Pentax camera.
 

jerome_m

Member
Well, even if it is a great lens, the HCD 24mm could also buy you an inexpensive tech cam and a Schneider wide for about the same price and you can use your H back on it with movements.
You are probably thinking about the Schneider 24mm f/5.6 Apo-Digitar XL. You don't have movements with that lens on a MF back, the imaging circle is too small.


SLR wide angles are generally a poor spot because of the difficulty of having to clear such a huge mirror box, and so a lot of the price and design work actually goes into making them able to mount on your camera. Don't forget that 24mm by definition implies that the focal point of the lens should be 24mm away from the sensor, which in practice is not even half-way through the mirror box (61.63mm). They have to work some scary voodoo to capture a wide field of view and send it over a longer lens group.
I don't care how they make it if it works and it does.
 
You are probably thinking about the Schneider 24mm f/5.6 Apo-Digitar XL. You don't have movements with that lens on a MF back, the imaging circle is too small.
That lens is specified for use with up to 36x48mm sensors, so it's about as wide as the 'blad 24mm. I was probably thinking about the Schneider 28mm f/5.6 which is a wider lens when used with a full-size sensor, though looking it up online I see it's quite a bit more expensive than I expected, still a lot less dough than the HCD24 though.

I don't care how they make it if it works and it does.
If you need convenience and autofocus on your super-wide then of course nothing can replace a lens you can just slap on your camera and have at it.

I think it's pointless to keep talking about this, so long as one isn't too critical about optical performance on really wide lenses, most SLR options will get you about the same result at about the same field of view. I doubt the HCD 24mm is magically leaps and bounds better than similar Mamiya, Pentax or Leica offerings until some people get together and do a controlled test using their systems. Personally, a 28mm on a crop (33x44) or 35mm on a full 645 sensor is about as wide as I'd go just for practical reasons and you can expect decent optics as well, but as you get closer to 20mm things get obscenely wide and hard to get under control for me. YMMV.
 

Bryan Stephens

Workshop Member
I am glad Phase is doing well. We always need choices. But when do they take some of that revenue and invest in a camera platform to replace the DF+? Yes, I understand that is soon, but it has been soon for years now. I guess I would not mind dropping an extra $4K if I thought I was getting something at least on par to the Pentax camera.
Its coming......(we have been hearing this for over 2 years now.) :banghead:
 

jerome_m

Member
That lens is specified for use with up to 36x48mm sensors, so it's about as wide as the 'blad 24mm. I was probably thinking about the Schneider 28mm f/5.6 which is a wider lens when used with a full-size sensor, though looking it up online I see it's quite a bit more expensive than I expected, still a lot less dough than the HCD24 though.
It is about the same price as the HCD 28mm and a full stop slower.


I think it's pointless to keep talking about this, so long as one isn't too critical about optical performance on really wide lenses, most SLR options will get you about the same result at about the same field of view. I doubt the HCD 24mm is magically leaps and bounds better than similar Mamiya, Pentax or Leica offerings until some people get together and do a controlled test using their systems.
You are saying above that tech cam lenses are leaps and bounds better than SLR lenses. I simply do not believe it.
 
It is about the same price as the HCD 28mm and a full stop slower.
Going by B&H prices, $5,500 is quite a bit less than $6,800... Aperture doesn't matter much on a lens you'll almost certainly be shooting at f/8 or smaller all the time, unless you're that fringe user who does star trails.

You are saying above that tech cam lenses are leaps and bounds better than SLR lenses. I simply do not believe it.
I've been lurking around for years and the many people who post here and on LuLa have often done comparisons that I remember were regularly in favor of tech cam lenses when it comes to corner sharpness.

I don't have ready access to medium format gear where I live and had to buy overseas, but if someone were willing to do a shootout between the SLR super wides and a tech lens to prove there isn't a very large difference, then I'll shut up about this, but so far you're the only person that has claimed the opposite of what everyone else says. If you're just using the fact that I said "leaps and bounds", then I admit that was hyperbole, since we're talking about the top 5% of the high end in imaging.
 
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Bryan Stephens

Workshop Member
For the most part, it is true that tech cam lenses are sharper corner to corner.

If the new 35mm sensors keep getting crammed with more pixels, they are going to have to be absolutely certain that there are lenses capable of handling all of that extra information. If not, even the slightest flaw or aberration is going to be extremely obvious in the image.
 
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