The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
Photokina Phase One Announcements: IQ1 100mp, Lenses, IQ3 Kit Updates, C1 v9.3
- Thread starter dougpeterson
- Start date
Yes but those who have paid even more for their back want to feel they have some 'added value' for the big wedge of extra cash.
The only other way they could have done it is to leave the features as they are and offer special editions with the signature of the current CEO (whoever that is) or celebrity endorsed luxury finishes.
I guess so. But what was P1 thinking ? I mean, people sat down around a table and actually thought this was a good idea. Wow. They clearly didn't put themselves in the position of the user. Imagine the experience of someone using this CMOS back: composing in live view and then facing the frustration of not being able to simply capture the image they are seeing at the press of a button. Even a $100 compact camera can do this. That a $33k digital back can't is just plain ridiculous; it's what CMOS is all about.
Can't help but think that now, with the mirrorless sea change occurring in the world of MF, this would have been a great time for P1 to simply bite the bullet and pitch the price of the IQ3-100 at the same price as the H6D-100c, and adjust the price of the rest of their line-up accordingly.
No need to introduce 'bridge' products like the IQ1-100.
Can't help but think that now, with the mirrorless sea change occurring in the world of MF, this would have been a great time for P1 to simply bite the bullet and pitch the price of the IQ3-100 at the same price as the H6D-100c, and adjust the price of the rest of their line-up accordingly.
No need to introduce 'bridge' products like the IQ1-100.
Paul David
Member
Until now PhaseOne had my highest respect. High prices were thought to be necessary to support the cost of R&D and manufacture. This latest stunt, however, positions P1 as just another company out to milk the consumer.
To PhaseOne-- What do you plan to do to earn back our respect?
Paul
To PhaseOne-- What do you plan to do to earn back our respect?
Paul
Chipcarterdc
New member
I am a current XF/IQ3-100 owner. A few thoughts:
1. The inability to capture from live view wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I have that functionality now and never (I mean literally never) use it. I use the camera like a traditional camera: i.e., optical viewing and image capture. I don't like taking pictures through a video screen. (I realize others have different needs and priorities, though).
2. Speaking of which: I'll continue to harp on the fact that I hope the mirrorless medium format trend doesn't take over the world: I don't like, and won't use, EVFs.
3. More generally, I think folks might be missing a few things regarding the IQ1-100 v IQ3-100 feature set and pricing. The most important is that the price delta between the IQ3-100 and the new IQ1-100 is far less than it appears because they are now including *a free lens of your choice with the IQ3-100.* That was not the case when I bought my IQ3-100. Granted, that makes no difference if you're only planning to use the IQ back with a view camera, but if you plan to use it with an XF body, you need a lens. (In fact, even if you plan *never* to use the back on an XF body, you could get the IQ3-100 anyway and sell the brand new lens to recoup that cost).
Let's say you want the 40-80 zoom, which costs around $9000 list price: that means that the difference between buying the IQ3-100 versus the IQ1-100 is "only" about $2000, not $11,000. If you think the missing features on the IQ1-100 are that important, then it's probably worth getting the IQ3-100 and getting those extra features for the extra $2000.
For me, if I were buying new, the vast majority of the features differences would make no difference to me whatsoever. I don't shoot in Live View; I don't use HDMI; I don't use any of the exposure calculation tools (I know how to do that myself); I don't shoot pictures from the controls on the rear screen (I use the shutter button); I don't use Auto ISO on this camera; and i have more than enough camera cases and bags already. But: if I were buying new, I'd probably *still* buy the IQ3-100 because (a) I'd get a free lens, which, as explained above, vastly decreases the actual price delta; (b) of the missing features, the ones *for me* that would be worth the additional cost would be power sharing (incredibly useful) and the 5 year warranty/"uptime guarantee." Those two features alone, over time, would be worth the additional marginal cost to me once you discount the price of the lens. And maybe the wifi: I can envision scenarios where the camera's position is such that looking through the prism or waist level or looking at the back's screen to compose is infeasible. Being able to do so on your iPhone via wifi could come in handy. (Although, having played around with the Capture Pilot app, I've noticed that you can't activate autofocus from your phone, so how the heck are you going to focus the camera when used in this manner? If you can't reach it to see through the viewfinder or on the rear screen, you also can't reach it to focus the lens.)
For others, though, the marginal value of those additional features might be less than the value of saving the $2000-$4000 (depending on the free lens chosen with the IQ3-100) and using it for another purpose, like hiring a series of models or photo assistants or a trip to somewhere to actually take pictures with the camera. I gather that's the purpose of the IQ1-100 strategy: to allow people who value the cash difference above the feature set differences to decide where to allocate those resources.
Last edited:
voidshatter
Member
What's worse is that they kept using the very old design of the IQ180 to house the 100MP chip, and it appears that the cooling is not up to the task to handle the heat generated by the 100MP chip during long exposure (aka red shadow issue). Seriously they need to redesign the back - instead of re-using the 5 year old design!
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Your overall point here is definitely correct. However:
- the IQ1 100mp kit comes with an 80LS Blue Ring
- the IQ3 100mp kit kit comes with your choice of prime lens.
As discussed on our IQ3 Kit Update article and shown in the IQ3 100mp product page.
So the difference is still less than it seems, but more than you've described here.
kdphotography
Well-known member
Me thinks it be better had Phase One released the IQ1 and IQ3 100MP models at the same time.
It would have been more similar to the choices made between the Classic and Value-Added options. Is the IQ1 like the "Credo" of old? Not as fully featured, lower price-point, and released later than the fully featured flag-ship P1 model....
Sound familiar? (I do like the interface of the P1 model better than the Credo, so that's a plus...)
Ken
It would have been more similar to the choices made between the Classic and Value-Added options. Is the IQ1 like the "Credo" of old? Not as fully featured, lower price-point, and released later than the fully featured flag-ship P1 model....
Sound familiar? (I do like the interface of the P1 model better than the Credo, so that's a plus...)
Ken
It just feels like a strange product. I'm not even sure the comparison with Leaf is fair. Just taking ownership for example: with a Leaf Credo 100 you would have that warm, fuzzy feeling of owning Leaf’s highest-end digital back. With an IQ1-100 you’ve got the cold, clammy feeling of owning the IQ3-100’s halfwit cousin.
What sort of company thinks this is a good idea ?
The one that promotes itself as, 'The world's leader in digital medium format photography' ?
Or the one that only rents a corner of someone else’s booth at Photokina ?
Oh, wait a second.
What sort of company thinks this is a good idea ?
The one that promotes itself as, 'The world's leader in digital medium format photography' ?
Or the one that only rents a corner of someone else’s booth at Photokina ?
Oh, wait a second.
Don Libby
Well-known member
I've been shooting with an IQ180 for a couple years and was hesitant to upgrading to the IQ3100 for the simple reason there was overkill for me; things I just didn't need nor want. I no longer use a tech camera so the idea of HDMI just didn't appeal. Likewise the idea of WIFI; if I want to tether I can use my Surface and save power, however since leaving the tech camera I've also had no need to tether. Looking at (my opinion) "nice to have" items such as more camera controls, I'm very satisfied with what I have now. Auto ISO? The only time I ever use it is with my converted A7r and never with any other camera. USB charging from, again while I might consider it a "nice to have" I really don't need it. Likewise power sharing since I have never as yet run into a situation where I actually needed it; then again I also currently don't have HDMI or WIFI. And then we come to the other "items" of difference...
Warranty. I'm on my 5th Phase back (6th if I include the Kodak) and only one back has been new (P30+). In all the backs and all the conditions I've used them I've only had one issue (I'll back to that in a bit). There's an old saying of "no free lunch" and that is what I see with the "free lens of choice" with the IQ3100. Likewise, I don't need any more cases, card readers, (small) CF cards, calibration plates or batteries (I currently have 9).
Not entirely certain of the price difference between the IQ3100 and 1100 however I think it's close to $10,000. That's $10,000 for additional "stuff" I don't need. Coming back to the one issue I've had; the back had to be sent back to the mothership where it was completely torn apart and every circuit board replaced/upgraded and returned better than new. The cost was $3,000 which in my opinion was money well spent for the service performed. I see the saving of $7,000 as a trip to Japan to shoot snow monkeys, or a trip to Alaska to shoot north lights, or - hell you get the idea.
So in the end I like the IQ1100 well enough to have one on order. It works for me. I'm not pissed off that Phase is using an "older" box to stuff the sensor in; nor am I disappointed that they didn't introduce a mirrorless camera as I never expected them to in the first place. I am however pleased/surprised to hear about the IQ1100 as I am ready to upgrade and will be able to save money on things I just don't need/want.
The IQ1100 suits my needs/wants. If it doesn't fit yours so be it. Two things I learned in life is that there's no free lunch and one-size doesn't fit everyone.
Warranty. I'm on my 5th Phase back (6th if I include the Kodak) and only one back has been new (P30+). In all the backs and all the conditions I've used them I've only had one issue (I'll back to that in a bit). There's an old saying of "no free lunch" and that is what I see with the "free lens of choice" with the IQ3100. Likewise, I don't need any more cases, card readers, (small) CF cards, calibration plates or batteries (I currently have 9).
Not entirely certain of the price difference between the IQ3100 and 1100 however I think it's close to $10,000. That's $10,000 for additional "stuff" I don't need. Coming back to the one issue I've had; the back had to be sent back to the mothership where it was completely torn apart and every circuit board replaced/upgraded and returned better than new. The cost was $3,000 which in my opinion was money well spent for the service performed. I see the saving of $7,000 as a trip to Japan to shoot snow monkeys, or a trip to Alaska to shoot north lights, or - hell you get the idea.
So in the end I like the IQ1100 well enough to have one on order. It works for me. I'm not pissed off that Phase is using an "older" box to stuff the sensor in; nor am I disappointed that they didn't introduce a mirrorless camera as I never expected them to in the first place. I am however pleased/surprised to hear about the IQ1100 as I am ready to upgrade and will be able to save money on things I just don't need/want.
The IQ1100 suits my needs/wants. If it doesn't fit yours so be it. Two things I learned in life is that there's no free lunch and one-size doesn't fit everyone.
Don Libby
Well-known member
I hope to find out shortly and will share
kdphotography
Well-known member
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
The IQ1100 with firmware feature crippling is exactly the same as the irritation I had with my IQ150 vs IQ250 purchase. When I moved from my IQ260 to CMOS I wanted the functionality of the IQ150 that matched that of my IQ260 and IQ250 with the only missing feature being the WIFI and value added warranty. I literally saw no value in the WIFI due to the very poor performance in the IQ260, and I knew that the IQ150 internally would be identical to the IQ250 but without the WIFI module. The cost increment certainly wasn't worth the extra.
When the IQ350 and XF system came along, Phase One added firmware features like the exposure map but only made them available for the IQ2 series and not the IQ1. That annoyed the heck out of me because the differentiator between the IQ2 and IQ1 was now crippled features beyond just the WIFI functionality & warranty that I personally didn't need/want. For the IQ3 series the hardware features for the XF integration, WIFI (and HDMI for IQ3100) plus warranty definitely make sense for incremental value. Crippling the firmware features like the exposure map/clip just seems unnecessary and I wouldn't ever find $10k in value to incent me to buy the IQ2/3 series version of my back.
I am like Don in that I want to do the 100mp CMOS change but none of the IQ3 features are things that I need (and I'm differentiating between need vs want/like to have). I'm just still irritated that Phase One essentially have disabled the same parts of the code in the firmware when running on an IQ1 series back.
When the IQ350 and XF system came along, Phase One added firmware features like the exposure map but only made them available for the IQ2 series and not the IQ1. That annoyed the heck out of me because the differentiator between the IQ2 and IQ1 was now crippled features beyond just the WIFI functionality & warranty that I personally didn't need/want. For the IQ3 series the hardware features for the XF integration, WIFI (and HDMI for IQ3100) plus warranty definitely make sense for incremental value. Crippling the firmware features like the exposure map/clip just seems unnecessary and I wouldn't ever find $10k in value to incent me to buy the IQ2/3 series version of my back.
I am like Don in that I want to do the 100mp CMOS change but none of the IQ3 features are things that I need (and I'm differentiating between need vs want/like to have). I'm just still irritated that Phase One essentially have disabled the same parts of the code in the firmware when running on an IQ1 series back.
Don Libby
Well-known member
I'm in agreement with you Graham. Still pissed that all it should take is a simple firmware update which hasn't happened yet. On the other hand, the last update did add some nice functions so there's hope still.
Talked to a P1 rep at the Kina. He did have an upgrade price from my IQ160 towards the IQ1-100. 18k€+VAT. That values the IQ160 at around 7k€. Did not think that was such a great offer.
But he had a big table with all the upgrade prices, so there is something official.
I was a bit dissapointed by the P1 presence this year. Very small, cramped booth, and not much new to show. But it was the same for Leica.
But he had a big table with all the upgrade prices, so there is something official.
I was a bit dissapointed by the P1 presence this year. Very small, cramped booth, and not much new to show. But it was the same for Leica.
€7k ... hmmm ... dealers are asking €15k for used IQ160s.
Probably better off selling it yourself. I've seen them go around the €10k in the past, though obviously with the release of the X1D and GFX I would imagine a lot of people thinking about getting into MF see those cameras as far greater value propositions.
Probably better off selling it yourself. I've seen them go around the €10k in the past, though obviously with the release of the X1D and GFX I would imagine a lot of people thinking about getting into MF see those cameras as far greater value propositions.
This does actually make for an interesting comparison.
Difference in price between the IQ1 and IQ3 100MP backs is $11,000. If bought as a kit, that price differential stays the same, but, if you "max out" the blue-ring prime lens with the IQ3, then that takes care of roughly $3,700 of the gap.
The 5 year VAR IIRC used to be something in the region of a $4K additional cost? That now comes "free" with the IQ3, but has been "removed" from the IQ1 (as has always been the case across the IQ1 range since the IQ2 was introduced).
So actually the "true" price differential between the two options is only $3,300.
I can easily see the "better" sales guys out there managing to up-sell 70% plus of their prospects who would have purchased the IQ1 100 into purchasing the IQ3 100. All that peace of mind over a 5 year period for just an extra two bucks a day? No brainer. Isn't it!
FFS. I'm almost convinced myself!
Kind regards,
Gerald.
I'd been struggling to figure out what the IQ1-100 was all about ... but when you put it like that, it does make sense ... to P1's sales of the IQ3-100, that is.
That said, the fact that a $33k digital back comes with the same warranty as a toaster from Walmart (1 year RTM) is laughable.
That said, the fact that a $33k digital back comes with the same warranty as a toaster from Walmart (1 year RTM) is laughable.
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
In my experience after owning SIX Phase One / Leaf backs is that they are either DOA or have problems on delivery or they are flawless / flawless after the initial issue. i.e rock solid after year one, or in my couple of cases day one.
Now you could argue WTF with receiving two backs that needed immediate fix (or in my case replacement) on day one of delivery. Others have been rock solid, as were after the initial failures. That said, when we pay this much they absolutely should not ever be received with any problems whatsoever. EVER!!.
In my own personal experience years two to five have only ever required at most a sensor remap with CCD and that would be complementary anyway.
Now you could argue WTF with receiving two backs that needed immediate fix (or in my case replacement) on day one of delivery. Others have been rock solid, as were after the initial failures. That said, when we pay this much they absolutely should not ever be received with any problems whatsoever. EVER!!.
In my own personal experience years two to five have only ever required at most a sensor remap with CCD and that would be complementary anyway.