The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Phase One - a cautionary tale regarding their "support"

Abstraction

Well-known member
*Sigh*

Have you read the whole thread? You're just regurgitating stuff that has already been proven to be incorrect.

One more time. For the record. And then I'm out of here.

The back DOES NOT reliably tether when using a standard USB3 port on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock.

The back DOES tether pretty much faultlessly when using the high powered USB3 port on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock.


And still you want to say the fault is with the Mac.

Reply if you want, but I won't be wasting my time responding again to anyone who continues to blindly support Phase One on this issue.
I have read the entire thread and I'm not unsympathetic. You go shafted by Phase One. I understand that and I'm with you.

The way I see it, you've got two issues:

1. Phase One didn't deliver on the support promise and instead of owning up to it, they gave you some bullshit excuse.

2. Your back requires more power than Mac USB delivers.

I would like to talk about the second issue because as far as I'm concerned, you are 100% right on the first issue and you got the raw deal.

So, talking about the second issue... The USB power spec for USB 3 specifies 900mAh of power, whereas the USB battery charging spec calls for 1500mAh of power. The back is asking the mac to treat it as battery charging device and deliver 1500mAh. The Mac refuses and only provides 900mAh. Using the hub short circuits the process, ignores the Mac's insistence on only providing 900mAh and provides full power to the back.

It would be beyond the scope of this forum to go into great depth vis-a-vis USB protocol to assign blame. Suffice it to say, that this behavior may be exhibited by other devices and you should be aware of the power limitations of the USB on your computer in case you encounter a similar issue with another device.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
So, talking about the second issue... The USB power spec for USB 3 specifies 900mAh of power, whereas the USB battery charging spec calls for 1500mAh of power. The back is asking the mac to treat it as battery charging device and deliver 1500mAh. The Mac refuses and only provides 900mAh. Using the hub short circuits the process, ignores the Mac's insistence on only providing 900mAh and provides full power to the back.

It would be beyond the scope of this forum to go into great depth vis-a-vis USB protocol to assign blame.
Yes. Exactly. Which shows, as I have been saying all along, that the fault clearly and unequivocally lies with Phase One.

Apple make no claims for the USB3 ports on their iMacs supporting battery charging/power delivery to third party peripherals. They are just regular USB3 ports - to the exact same specification as the regular ports on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock, that also do not supply sufficient amperage to allow reliable tethering.

This is the key bit that you seem to be ignoring, and it most definitely is within the scope of this discussion, because it lies at the root of the problem behind everything, and once you accept the simple clear evidence that has been presented, blame absolutely can be assigned.

The OWC dock has both regular and "hi power" USB3 ports. The USB specification for regular ports and battery charging/power delivery ports is different. It's up to every manufacturer to decide whether to have just regular ports, or power delivery ports.

Phase One claim their back can be tethered directly to "this MacBook Pro... and pretty much anything else that’s out there".

Not true.

The backs can only be reliably directly tethered to computers or hubs with battery charging/power delivery USB ports.

That really is the end of the discussion. All that remains now is for them to have the decency to come out and admit it, and stop assigning blame to anyone or any company other than their own.

/edit
It is worth adding here that those arrogant b@stards actually suggested that I should go through the time and expense to have my iMac serviced because in their view clearly the problem must be with the iMac and perhaps there was a problem with its USB board.

Unfrickingbelievable.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
The back DOES NOT reliably tether when using a standard USB3 port on the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock.
This is the case when using the OWC dock with the official Phase One 9-foot USB3 cable and nothing else in the chain (i.e. no other repeaters, extenders, or "boosts")?
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
This is the case when using the OWC dock with the official Phase One 9-foot USB3 cable and nothing else in the chain (i.e. no other repeaters, extenders, or "boosts")?
I have a lot of respect for your expertise Doug, and clearly from your posts here you have had a considerable amount of experience with different tethering setups.

So answer me this.

When one of your customers is tethering via the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock, what advice do you give them with regards which USB port on the dock to connect the back to? And why.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I have a lot of respect for your expertise Doug, and clearly from your posts here you have had a considerable amount of experience with different tethering setups.

So answer me this.

When one of your customers is tethering via the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock, what advice do you give them with regards which USB port on the dock to connect the back to? And why.
Any of them.

With a standard P1 USB3 cable (no extensions/repeaters), "Charge from PC" set to off, and an OWC dock it should not matter which of the USB ports you plug into. That is my experience across many computers, hubs, P1 backs, and cables.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Any of them.

With a standard P1 USB3 cable (no extensions/repeaters), "Charge from PC" set to off, and an OWC dock it should not matter which of the USB ports you plug into. That is my experience across many computers, hubs, P1 backs, and cables.
So you would assert that I have both a faulty iMac and a faulty OWC dock?

I'm the only person you have ever encountered with an OWC dock who cannot reliably tether off the standard powered ports?

It does all seem remarkably coincidental.

I've just tested it again. Back was connected to the high power port. Back off, computer in standby.

Turned back on, brought computer out of standby. Immediately tethers.

Swapped the USB connection to a regular port. Back disconnects.

Started taking a video for posterity.

Swapped the USB connection to the high power port. Immediately tethers.

Swapped the USB connection to the regular power port. Disconnects.

Note - this is a continuous video. It goes black simply because I put the phone down to plug the cable in.


Have you personally done this test with the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock?

Because I could demonstrate this behaviour repeating all day long.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

TheDude

Member
I am not getting this discussion!

Yes, some (older) USB ports don't have enough power output to power certain USB devices that have a high power requirement. Need to go through a powered USB hub.

What is there not to understand?

Annoying, yes.

MN
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Yes, some (older) USB ports don't have enough power output to power certain USB devices that have a high power requirement. Need to go through a powered USB hub.

What is there not to understand?
Phase One backs do not require “high-powered” USB ports, assuming you leave the Charge from PC menu option set to off.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Phase One backs do not require “high-powered” USB ports, assuming you leave the Charge from PC menu option set to off.
So how many times would you like me to record it doing what I show in the above video before you accept what I am saying?

10?

100?

When are you and Phase One going to have the decency to admit you are demonstrably, provably, wrong?

What IS your explanation for the behaviour shown in the video? You don’t seem to want to actually address the clear evidence presented.

Put down the hymn book and come up with an explanation for what I’ve shown.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
I am not getting this discussion!

Yes, some (older) USB ports don't have enough power output to power certain USB devices that have a high power requirement. Need to go through a powered USB hub.

What is there not to understand?

Annoying, yes.

MN
The video above is going through a powered hub.

That’s kinda the entire point.
 

JeRuFo

Active member
I still don't get what point you are trying to make. That all P1 backs have the wrong USB hardware? I get that it doesn't work as it should in your case, but you have hardly proven anything beyond that.
Since you have a workable solution now, I don't get why you can't accept Doug's word that in his experience it usually works differently.
Your dealer and/or Phase One has wronged you in resolving your issues, but I don't see you providing proof that the technical problem is with them and not on your side either. Nobody doubts that it doesn't work as it should. But why? These backs are very picky about the power supply. I don't know why they designed it with such small margins. But have you measured the actual output of the ports in the meantime? Just because other stuff works doesn't mean this should too.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
So you would assert that I have both a faulty iMac and a faulty OWC dock?
I don't know what component is causing your problems.

What I can say is that, over many years, many customers, and many backs we find that when connectivity issues are reported:
- Many cables that have gone bad, or errant settings or software version [very common]
- Quite a few problematic iMac USB ports [common]
- A handful of problematic ports on other computers such as Mac Pro towers [uncommon]
- An occasional problematic back [very uncommon, but of course possible]

I've never had a back where P1 tested the back's USB and found it working in spec, but it turned out (after extensive troubleshooting) that the back's USB was in fact the source of the problem. However, circa 2008 or 2009 I remember having a back that P1 tested the FireWire and found that it was working in spec, but it turned out (after extensive troubleshooting) the back's FireWire was the problem.

As a random aside, I remember a troubleshooting case back when I was in the support department, where we couldn't figure out why a customer's back was disconnecting mid shoot (the customer had been using it with zero issues for half a year). We had him send us the back and it tested fine. It still disconnected on him. We sent it to P1 and it tested fine. It still disconnected on him. We had him send his laptop to us where we ran every test and every maintenance program we could and his laptop worked great. We sent him several new cables, new batteries, and a second digital back to help him test in situ. I ended up flying out to his location and joining him on a mock shoot where we insisted he wear the same shoes, eat the same breakfast, pack the car, drive to the same kind of location and do the same kind of shooting he would for a client. It worked flawlessly for the first couple hours (as it had in all the cases where it gave him problems) and then suddenly stopped working. Turns out it was the laptop; that early model MacBookPro had heat-dissipation issues, and as the hot southern sun came out and that heat combined with the stress of the laptop processing big raw files, the firewire port started misbehaving. I installed a little app called SMC Fan Control that forced the fan to run at full power 100% of the time and shows the internal temperature of the laptop in realtime, and all his symptoms vanished. Since our testing of his laptop was done in our air conditioned studio, it hadn't previously revealed the issue.

We've also had cases where three cables in a row were bad, directly out of the package, despite our broad experience that the dud-rate out of the package is really low, so three in a row should be nearly statistically impossible (to the point where I assume that there was some cause that effected all three cables like a bad manufacturing batch, or the way that box of cables was stored/transported).

When you handle enough cases, you see strange things on a routine basis.

The issue could be your back, or a setting, or the software (you said you had updated to Mojave earlier; don't know if you downgraded, as this OS is not yet supported in C1), a cable (even if you've tried two), or some yet-unknown variable as we found with the client in the hot Southern Sun. Work with your dealer to test until you find the cause. As long as you insist on this conspiracy theory that P1 backs require high-powered USB ports you will only waste your time and bang your head against the wall. P1 IQ backs strictly comply with the USB spec, and do not require high-powered USB ports. I don't say that because P1 says that; I say that because I have more than seven years of experience with many many many IQ backs being used by many many many customers with many many many computers with many many many ports.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
When are you and Phase One going to have the decency to admit you are demonstrably, provably, wrong?
[...]
Put down the hymn book and come up with an explanation for what I’ve shown.
Yep, this is the point where I stop caring.

I've spent considerable time sharing my experience with you in an effort to help. In return you've now called me an indecent zealot and questioned my integrity and motivations.
 

TheDude

Member
I remember a troubleshooting case back when I was in the support department, where we couldn't figure out why a customer's back was disconnecting mid shoot (the customer had been using it with zero issues for half a year). We had him send us the back and it tested fine. It still disconnected on him. We sent it to P1 and it tested fine. It still disconnected on him. We had him send his laptop to us where we ran every test and every maintenance program we could and his laptop worked great. We sent him several new cables, new batteries, and a second digital back to help him test in situ. I ended up flying out to his location and joining him on a mock shoot where we insisted he wear the same shoes, eat the same breakfast, pack the car, drive to the same kind of location and do the same kind of shooting he would for a client. It worked flawlessly for the first couple hours (as it had in all the cases where it gave him problems) and then suddenly stopped working. Turns out it was the laptop; that early model MacBookPro had heat-dissipation issues, and as the hot southern sun came out and that heat combined with the stress of the laptop processing big raw files, the firewire port started misbehaving. I installed a little app called SMC Fan Control that forced the fan to run at full power 100% of the time and shows the internal temperature of the laptop in realtime, and all his symptoms vanished. Since our testing of his laptop was done in our air conditioned studio, it hadn't previously revealed the issue.
Hard to believe how hard it sometimes can be to figure out such intermittent failures.
 
Top