X1d e-shutter quite usable.

[Boinger]

The comments around E-shutter being unusable I think are greatly exaggerated. Just thought I would share a couple shots of my son. He was actually dancing around in 2 of these quite a lot. And the e-shutter was able to capture him fine.

Nothing to crazy in terms of edits done. Applied lens profile in LR not sure if that would even work correctly?

X1d
Zeiss ZM 50mm 1.5

 

[Paratom]

Hi, is this cropped or does the 50/1.5 render such a large image circle?
I like the images.

 

[Boinger]

Hi, is this cropped or does the 50/1.5 render such a large image circle?
I like the images.

All of these are uncropped. Thank you.

 

[vieri]

The e-shutter works great for landscapes' long exposure, no problems at all there. For portraits, there are some restrictions, but you seem to have put it to a great use! :thumbup:

Best regards,

Vieri

 

[dougpeterson]

Is the eshutter usable? As with most seemingly simple question the answer is more complex than it first seems, and the only true short answer is "it depends".

The main limitation of using ES is related to the intra-frame distortion also known as the "rolling shutter effect".

How much distortion is created?
The amount of intra-frame distortion created by an eshutter will depend on:
- the amount of movement of the camera
- the amount of movement of the subject
- the length of the lens

So for example...
- An ES tripod image of landscape therefore is completely non-problematic
- An ES handheld portrait of a static subject with a wide lens is only slightly problematic
- An ES handheld fashion shot of a moving-with-the-flow model with a long lens is highly problematic*
- An ES handheld sports shot of a American Football quarter back throwing a touch down with a very long lens is essentially impossible*

How much distortion can be tolerated?
Separate from how much distortion is created, the amount that any given amount of distortion that matters (visually) depends on:
- the subject matter
- the use

So for example...
- For scientific measurements, or architectural images of highly geometric buildings then even a slight amount of intra-frame distortion matters a lot.
- For shots of a person's face a moderate amount of intra-frame distortion can be tolerated without becoming obvious/aesthetically-intrusive.
- For abstract photos of light and color without any obvious grounding in reality any amount of intra-frame distortion may be tolerable, and in fact may be a positive mechanism to accomplish an aesthetic goal

We have more about Electronic Shutter (ES) use, in the context of Phase One hardware, here: Phase One Electronic Shutter (ES). Much of it is applicable to any camera with an ES, though some of it is specific to technologies/workflows/capabilities exclusive to Phase One.

*to accomplish in a way that results in a normal looking image (i.e. without significant and obvious intra frame distortion)

 

[Paul2660]

Point being:

E shutter on XF is not hand holdable. I have long given up on that. Works great with a tripod and it’s always my first option.

Hasselblad and Fuji by design can allow hand holdable shooting with the e shutter within normal shutter speed ranges.

Paul C

 

[Boinger]

I am well aware of the limitations of the e-shutter in various applications and systems.

The general consensus is that you cannot use it for any situation with movements.

My post was to illustrate that my son was dancing around and I shot this with an e-shutter on a zeiss lens. He was moving about quite rapidly and in a situation where most would think that the e-shutter simply would not work.

All I was trying to show was that the fear of e-shutter's for adapted lenses on an X1d is something to be taken with a grain of salt. I think it is greatly exaggerated.

In practicality you may find use for some lenses you have lying around.

 

[dougpeterson]

The general consensus is that you cannot use it for any situation with movements.

I don't see this as the general consensus. What posts/forums/blogs are you referring to that take this stance?

In any case, I agree that this is wrong. As long as you understand the limitations and caveats an ES can be used in a variety of scenes, including ones with quite a bit of motion.

The main limit on motion is on things that are moving quickly throughout the frame (not quickly in any absolute sense). For example your sons gesticulating arms are easily frozen by an ES while your son walking quickly across the frame would create a significant leaning effect. A fighter jet going mach 2 is a fine candidate for ES as long as it is coming over the horizon toward the camera and is far away. A shot of a person walking at a normal pace across the frame would be a problem if the frame is tight on a fraction of their total height (and if you care about the slight lean effect it would create).

 

[tcdeveau]

I don't see this as the general consensus. What posts/forums/blogs are you referring to that take this stance?

In any case, I agree that this is wrong.

There are many posts over on LuLa and even here that take the stance that the electronic shutter on the X1D (and the IQ series) is more unusable than usable, esp regarding subjects in motion, which is unfortunate. Many of those voices I don't see coming from actual X1D users though.

Sure there are limitations, and ES may not be the right tool for the job (or even up to the task) in every scenario, but those limitations don't preclude the general usefulness of the ES on the X1D IMHO.

I agree with the OP's conclusion regarding the X1D. The few times I've used ES on the X1D, it's quite usable handheld, but of course one's mileage may very and all that.

 

[hcubell]

I know I should try it myself, but what's the experience with using ES on a tripod with things like flowing water and clouds where a tripod is used but a long shutter speed (e.g., 1-10 seconds) is selected by using, say, a 10 stop ND filter?

 

[dougpeterson]

I know I should try it myself, but what's the experience with using ES on a tripod with things like flowing water and clouds where a tripod is used but a long shutter speed (e.g., 1-10 seconds) is selected by using, say, a 10 stop ND filter?

Once your shutter speed is long enough (which it is in your example) the rolling shutter effect of ES is entirely irrelevant.

 

[sog1927]

I know I should try it myself, but what's the experience with using ES on a tripod with things like flowing water and clouds where a tripod is used but a long shutter speed (e.g., 1-10 seconds) is selected by using, say, a 10 stop ND filter?

I'd expect it to be pretty much indistinguishable from the lens shutter under those circumstances.

 

[dchew]

I know I should try it myself, but what's the experience with using ES on a tripod with things like flowing water and clouds where a tripod is used but a long shutter speed (e.g., 1-10 seconds) is selected by using, say, a 10 stop ND filter?

I've been using the ES consistently since the feature was released. I have yet to find a situation like you describe where I can tell. Here are many examples ranging from 1/5 sec to 15 sec.

Dave

1/5 Sec

0.4-0.6 Sec

1-2 Sec

3 Sec

15 Sec

 

[hcubell]

I've been using the ES consistently since the feature was released. I have yet to find a situation like you describe where I can tell. Here are many examples ranging from 0.4 sec to 15 sec.

Dave

0.4-0.6 Sec

1-2 Sec

3 Sec

15 Sec

Thanks, Dave. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Boinger]

One thing to know about e-shutter. You should read this and pay attention to the master bias frame. Just know when it occurs etc.

http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php?topic=5587.msg24697#msg24697

 

[wallpaperviking]

Is the eshutter usable? As with most seemingly simple question the answer is more complex than it first seems, and the only true short answer is "it depends".

The main limitation of using ES is related to the intra-frame distortion also known as the "rolling shutter effect".

How much distortion is created?
The amount of intra-frame distortion created by an eshutter will depend on:
- the amount of movement of the camera
- the amount of movement of the subject
- the length of the lens

So for example...
- An ES tripod image of landscape therefore is completely non-problematic
- An ES handheld portrait of a static subject with a wide lens is only slightly problematic
- An ES handheld fashion shot of a moving-with-the-flow model with a long lens is highly problematic*
- An ES handheld sports shot of a American Football quarter back throwing a touch down with a very long lens is essentially impossible*

How much distortion can be tolerated?
Separate from how much distortion is created, the amount that any given amount of distortion that matters (visually) depends on:
- the subject matter
- the use

So for example...
- For scientific measurements, or architectural images of highly geometric buildings then even a slight amount of intra-frame distortion matters a lot.
- For shots of a person's face a moderate amount of intra-frame distortion can be tolerated without becoming obvious/aesthetically-intrusive.
- For abstract photos of light and color without any obvious grounding in reality any amount of intra-frame distortion may be tolerable, and in fact may be a positive mechanism to accomplish an aesthetic goal

We have more about Electronic Shutter (ES) use, in the context of Phase One hardware, here: Phase One Electronic Shutter (ES). Much of it is applicable to any camera with an ES, though some of it is specific to technologies/workflows/capabilities exclusive to Phase One.

*to accomplish in a way that results in a normal looking image (i.e. without significant and obvious intra frame distortion)

Thanks for the informative list Doug, very helpful..

Just wondering if the "dark frame" was required for the Hasselblad CFV 100C? I don't quite understand the reason that this is needed, any chance of clarification?

Would like to be able to use tilt/swing movements on a fast Canon lens on the 33mm x 44mm sensor and have loosely tried it on the GFX 100S but there is limited room with that setup. (flange distance between the two is very small). Using a Hassy digital back would give more room for movements but obviously there is no shutter. Using continuous lighting should not be a problem as would be the slower method of shooting. Anything other reasons as why this might not be possible?

I was unable to find any examples of such a combination. If you have seen any, please point me in the right direction.

I know the issues of image circle but as has been discovered, there are lenses that exceed the coverage of full frame and do cover the 33mm x 44mm sensor.

Thanks!

 

[Godfrey]

The comments around E-shutter being unusable I think are greatly exaggerated. Just thought I would share a couple shots of my son. He was actually dancing around in 2 of these quite a lot. And the e-shutter was able to capture him fine.

Nothing to crazy in terms of edits done. Applied lens profile in LR not sure if that would even work correctly?

X1d
Zeiss ZM 50mm 1.5

View attachment 139466

View attachment 139467

View attachment 139468

You have a beautiful boy! So cute!

I've used the E-shutter with my 907x/CFVII 50c quite a bit and not found it anywhere near as "unusable" as what I read in a lot of forums. Obviously, there are situations when it's mostly hopeless, but for my photography those are a minority. Portraits can be challenging, of course, with a 300ms readout speed, but can be achieved under the right circumstances.

Rather than read and believe literally what every post on a forum says, I tend to just try stuff with the equipment and go with whatever might work. It doesn't cost anything to take the 907x/CFVII 50c on a walk with an oddball lens fitted and see what it does...


Light Beam on Surface Texture - Santa Clara 2021
Hasselblad 907x + MS Optics Aporia 24mm f/2
ISO 100 @ f/5.6 @ 1/100

enjoy, G

 

[SrMphoto]

As mentioned, the usability of the e-shutter also depends on the camera's body movement. I have found that X2D's IBIS helps and makes e-shutter more useful with static objects (straight vertical lines are straight instead of distorted).

 

[Photon42]

Yes - and in 14-bit color the readout speed is faster.

 

[MGrayson]

I see no issues with the ES:

Of course, you have to be flexible about your notion of a slice of space-time. The effect on a wind farm is surreal. Thank you, BetterLight scanning backs!

Sigh. I can't resist. A line spinning at angular velocity omega in (r, theta, t) cylindrical coordinates, is theta = omega*t. The ES samples each (x,y) point at time t = t0 + y/a, where a is the scanning speed. (Note: infinite scanning speed means t = t0, which is the usual desired camera behavior.)

For the Geometrically minded, here are the world sheets of the fan blade and the shutter scan line (the vertical axis is time):



What are we seeing? Putting it all together, theta (remember polar coordinates?) is ArcTan[y/x] = omega*(t0+y/a),
so y/x = Tan[omega*t0 + omega*y/a], or x = y*Cot[A + B*y], for constants A and B.

Here's a plot for different values of A.


Matt

Extra Credit: There are five fan blades. Which ones do the two floating arcs belong to?