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Thread: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Just saw this on NR……Nikon files patent for FX mirrorless lens…..

    …..interesting!

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    I have been guessing launch date in 2015 or early 2016. I'm quite certain that the "1" Series is mostly a test bed for mirrorless technologies. Imagine a larger V3, modular with alternative viewfinders and grips like the F4 had. It will obviously have full functionality with AF-S lenses plus a new range of dedicated glass. Two versions probably, one with high frame rates and 16-20 MP sensor and one with moderate frame rates and 36-50MP sensor. At least one of them, most likely the low MP one, will feature 4K and some high-end video codec.

    All of it guesswork from my side, but I would be surprised if this isn't rather close to what we're going to get. This is also one of the reasons why I left m4/3.
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    Just saw this on NR……Nikon files patent for FX mirrorless lens…..

    …..interesting!
    Excellent! Sony needs competition so that its users can benefit!
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    More like Photokina 2016. But by then everyone will be using iPhones 😄

    I would rather they get a refresh to their PC-E lenses done. Long overdue.

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    I think that they ned to come finally with their FF mirror less system. It most probably will allow to attach today's F mount glass (all) via adapter plus of course allow to attach the new glass specially designed for that new system.

    Also the range of sensors will have a lower end around 24MP resolution and a high resolution version with whatever they come up anyway - most likely 48MP.

    Design wise I have high hopes for this from the beginning, as Nikon builds cameras for real photographers and not like Sony with several pretty obscure iterations before they get there.

    That will then be my step back into FF again. Earlier is waste of time and money at least for me!

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    Senior Member JohnBrew's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    It needs to be an F mount.
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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless….


    ^^

    + 1

    I'm totally with you here, John

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    F-mount will most probably be with an adapter, like for the "1" system. Allowing for F-mount lenses without adapter would make the camera unnecessary large because of the long distance from the lens flange to the sensor. Pentax tried that with K-01. Not a big success, I think.

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Whatever mount, they are going to be very pricey if the V1's price is an indicator.
    (I think the F mount will go to make it totally fly by wire)

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    F-mount will most probably be with an adapter, like for the "1" system. Allowing for F-mount lenses without adapter would make the camera unnecessary large because of the long distance from the lens flange to the sensor. Pentax tried that with K-01. Not a big success, I think.
    In my view, with the K-01, Pentax snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by saddling a great concept with a flawed design. I don't believe the camera was too large necessarily but it ended up being an unwieldy f-ugly toytown brick!
    I would rather see a nicely sized F-mount mirrorless Nikon than the kind of downsized body that will not balance well with many full frame lenses; even less so if you're forced to stick an adapter in the way. Done right, I think something the size of a Pentax K-01 might suit very nicely.
    I'm with John Brew on this one.
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    That's why I believe in a modular camera, like the F4 and the V3. That way, it can be small or large, depending on the need.

    Edit: If they go with the F-mount, they lose the option of going small for amateur versions, which would mean two different mounts that wouldn't be compatible. It's also a question if the F-mount satisfies the need of an advanced mirrorless camera.

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Now wouldn't THAT be nice!

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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless….


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    (...) F-mount will most probably be with an adapter, like for the "1" system. Allowing for F-mount lenses without adapter would make the camera unnecessary large because of the long distance from the lens flange to the sensor. (...)

    Sure, but personally I have no problems with the standard DSLR size, it fits my hands well.

    Camera handling is far more important to me than camera size.




    .
    Last edited by Steen; 19th December 2014 at 11:52. Reason: Removed misleading link
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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless….


    Besides I have seen, and especially read, so many times that a short flange-to-sensor distance introduces all kinds of problems with steep ray angles, smeared corners and color shading issues.
    And when you try to solve those issues with offset microlenses on the sensor, then the sensor no longer works quite as well with classic lenses made for a camera with a longer flange-to-sensor distance.
    So I for one do not hope for such an adapter mess caused by a new mount with shorter flange-to-sensor distance.
    We'll see.
    Just my personal 0.02 of course.
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Besides I have seen, and especially read, so many times that a short flange-to-sensor distance introduces all kinds of problems with steep ray angles, smeared corners and color shading issues.
    And when you try to solve those issues with offset microlenses on the sensor, then the sensor no longer works quite as well with classic lenses made for a camera with a longer flange-to-sensor distance.
    So I for one do not hope for such an adapter mess caused by a new mount with shorter flange-to-sensor distance.
    We'll see.
    Just my personal 0.02 of course.
    Steen,

    What happens with the Nikon V1 and its very short registry? You can still mount your Nikon F lenses and get decent pictures can't you?

    And those "system" lenses (whatever they are called) are pretty small. Granted it is a tiny sensor but there are no offset microlenses in Sony cams or Samsung cams or EOS M.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless….


    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    Steen,
    What happens with the Nikon V1 and its very short registry? You can still mount your Nikon F lenses and get decent pictures can't you?
    (...)

    Yes, but the V1 1" sensor area is only 14 pct. of the FF 24x36mm sensor area.
    I have actually never tried to put an FF F-mount lens on the V1 despite - as you know - my wife owns and uses a V1 - and thank you for your great help with a good deal on the V1
    But I assume this outmost central centre of the image circle from a FF lens ought to be rendered ok by a V1 1" sensor.

    I'm less confident about what happens if I am to use such an ultra-short register with an FF sensor, I have a feeling it might not be all that healthy.
    But admittedly I'm not an optical engineer or anything like that, so I could easily be wrong about all this.

    .

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….


    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    (...)
    And those "system" lenses (whatever they are called) are pretty small. Granted it is a tiny sensor but there are no offset microlenses in Sony cams or Samsung cams or EOS M.

    Oh, I thought that e.g. the Sony A7R used offset microlenses ?
    Sorry if I'm completely wrong about this.

    Well here it is, the link where I once saw some Sony folks presenting the A7R (and A7) and talking about the need of offset microlenses.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=VfSrsqn3ESc
    Go to about 17-18 minutes into this presentation video clip where they talk about it.
    I dunno, I've never owned or even tried an A7R yet, will do as soon as I can get hold on one.


    .
    Last edited by Steen; 19th December 2014 at 14:41. Reason: adding the link - the missing link .-)

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Besides I have seen, and especially read, so many times that a short flange-to-sensor distance introduces all kinds of problems with steep ray angles, smeared corners and color shading issues.
    And when you try to solve those issues with offset microlenses on the sensor, then the sensor no longer works quite as well with classic lenses made for a camera with a longer flange-to-sensor distance.
    So I for one do not hope for such an adapter mess caused by a new mount with shorter flange-to-sensor distance.
    We'll see.
    Just my personal 0.02 of course.
    I agree, and the perfect solution to this would be telecentric lenses, which was one of the reasons the lenses for the 4/3 DSLRs were so good and so evenly sharp from corner to corner. But telecentric lenses for FX would be huge, so it's not an alternative that a sane camera manufacturer would go for.

    I suspect that Nikon won't care much for classic lenses other than their own, which would then open the door for any other SLR lens with adapters, but not necessarily rangefinder lenses. Maybe a compromise is the ideal; somewhere between the flange distance of F-mount and E-mount.

    Just guessing here
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Steen, I have two of Nikon's finest lenses from a short lived and abandoned F3AF, namely, the 80/3.5 and the 200/3.5 lenses (for those who do not know, see: F3AF with AF 80mm f/2.8 & AF 200mm f/3.5 ED-IF). They can not be mounted on a modern Nikon F (is it "FX"?) body but work just fine on an A7r with an adapter as manual focus lenses. I am sure they will do fine on the D800 series as well when the chip contacts are blocked. The 800 series use the same sensors from Sony. What sort of problems do they pose?

    Nikon experimented with keeping the F mount for digital before the D1 came out. Those were not all that great (price wise and also for real use).

    Unlike Nikon's celebrated chip based metering of their own lenses on their own bodies, the Sony (and most systems out there) can meter, in any metering mode, with every Nikon lens. Many will not forget Nikon's sneaky business strategy of making their own old lenses (though they may fit a body via the magical F mount) obsolete.
    Last edited by Vivek; 20th December 2014 at 00:49.

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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless….


    ^^

    Oooh, that Viewfinder looks convincing

    F3AF with AF 80mm f/2.8 & AF 200mm f/3.5 ED-IF
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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    (...) The 800 series use the same sensors from Sony. What sort of problems do they pose? (...)

    I don't know, Vivek.
    My own personal experience is limited to an attempt with combination of some Leica M optics mounted on Micro Four Third cameras.
    To my surprise that experiment didn't turn out very well despite the fact that the M4/3 sensor has an area of only about ~ 25 % of the format the M lenses and their image circles were designed for.

    This made me suspect that optics with their optical formulas are designed for specific flange-to-sensor distances, and maybe also the other way round that sensor layers and their thicknesses are designed for specific optical formulas.
    Otherwise I don't get it why an expensive full frame M lens could be such a disappointing performer on such a small sensor that only uses the very best centre of the image circle ?

    I have just read so many times about problems with all these combinations that I for one prefer to just stick with native mount lenses and concentrate on content.
    That's just me, and you probably shouldn't take too much notice of this preference of mine.
    Whatever works well for you is of course fine.

    With regards to Nikon I just hope that the F-mount will survive the transition to Electronic Viewfinder cameras if at some point the Nikon company decides to take that EVF route for its FX and DX format cameras.
    In the hope that my lenses will stay native-mount lenses and not become obsolete.
    In the hope that I don't have to start all over and buy new native mount lenses.
    That's all there is to it.

    I'm not so sure that the D800 series uses the same sensor as Sony.
    I suspect that both of them are designed and optimized for each their lens mount respectively, simply due to the different flange-to-sensor distances ?
    As I said I got the impression from the above mentioned presentation video that the A7R sensor needs offset micro-lenses whereas I have never heard or read that any of the D8xx series sensors use offset micro-lenses.

    .
    Last edited by Steen; 20th December 2014 at 12:51.

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Oh, EVF is coming without a question! You can't go mirrorless without an EVF. Otherwise it will be a disaster like the Pentax experiment.

    I do not find any problems with Nikon F lenses on Sony cameras. My point is not to convince anyone that S is better than N. Not at all. The point of discussion is the change of mount and Nikon may be providing an adapter to use the F mount lenses.

    Given the history, Nikon will likely still produce F mount cameras (like they did with the F6) during the transition.
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    I don't know, Vivek.
    My own personal experience is limited to an attempt with combination of some Leica M optics mounted on Micro Four Third cameras.
    To my surprise that experiment didn't turn out very well despite the fact that the M4/3 sensor has an area of only about ~ 25 % of the format the M lenses and their image circles were designed for.

    This made me suspect that optics with their optical formulas are designed for a specific flange-to-sensor distances, and maybe also the other way round that sensor layers and their thicknesses are designed for specific optical formulas.
    Otherwise I don't get it why an expensive full frame M lens could be such a disappointing performer on such a small sensor that only uses the very best centre of the image circle ?
    Two things:

    1. The m43 has ~5mm of glass on its sensor. So, a completely different design in a lens is warranted while using lenses designed for film.

    2. The pixel density in m43rds sensor is very high. One needs very high resolution lenses. ^^

    When I tried the Panasonic 20/1.7 on a NEX-6 (APS-C, very thin filter stack on the sensor), it was just too sharp. Brittle sharp and just horrible.

    BTW, Steen, the sensor stack thickness in Nikon cams vary wildly. Everything is an approximation.
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    BTW, Steen, the flange distance of an F mount lens to the image plane remains exactly the same. Here is a sample shot (you may remember the adapter! ), the lens is front heavy (on any camera). Showing off two unique items (besides the gift- the adapter) - 1. UV-Nikkor 105/4.5, formerly used by a digital UV pioneer Mr.Fumio Yokozawa 2. The first FF digital UV cam.

    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
    A7r, Color Yashinon 40/1.7
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    Nikon to go FX mirrorless ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post

    BTW, Steen, the flange distance of an F mount lens to the image plane remains exactly the same. Here is a sample shot (you may remember the adapter! ) (...)

    Yup, I'm totally with you on that part, Vivek.
    My worry is only that if a future Nikon mirrorless gets a new mount with a shorter flange-to-sensor distance, then the sensor will most likely be designed and optimized specifically for that new native mount and its shorter register (maybe even with offset microlenses) and for the new lenses - not for the old F-mount optics.

    In that case the new optics may very well be better suited for such a new camera than the old F-mount lenses.
    It's just that I like my present lenses, so I wouldn't like to see the F-mount go. That's all.
    Anyway, we'll see what happens.

    and yes, I do recognize the adapter, nice UV rig

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post



    Yup, I'm totally with you on that part, Vivek.
    My worry is only that if a future Nikon mirrorless gets a new mount with a shorter flange-to-sensor distance, then the sensor will most likely be designed and optimized specifically for that new native mount and its shorter register (maybe even with offset microlenses) and for the new lenses - not for the old F-mount optics.

    In that case the new optics may very well be better suited for such a new camera than the old F-mount lenses.
    It's just that I like my present lenses, so I wouldn't like to see the F-mount go. That's all.
    Anyway, we'll see what happens.

    and yes, I do recognize the adapter, nice UV rig
    A new mirror less FF Nikon will hopefully benefit from a shorter flange distance which allows to design new lenses much smaller and more optimized for this new system resulting in lighter equipment and better IQ. Who would not want that?

    Of course the "old" Nikkor F mount glass needs to stay useable via an adapter, which Nikon needs to offer to not offend their legacy SLR and DSLR users. And I am pretty sure Nikon DSLRs will still stay for at least a long time as many photographers just prefer and will prefer mirrors and OVF. Nikon has one of the best DSLR technology lineups, so they can (and NEED) to keep this alive as long as possible.

    Having said that they no longer can ignore the benefits from mirror less and this is a very good thing. I have got accustomed to using EVFs and dare I say the ones in EM1 and XT1 are stellar and offer so many advantages for me over even the best OVFs that I do not look back to DSLRs a single time.

    My hope is that Nikon will be able to build a real Nikon mirror less camera which is in the size of the good old FM/FE line decades ago or at least not larger than the legendary F3 - which both I still own and love to shoot from time to time. They have all this knowledge and design already in house so hopefully will build on that for their new mirror less camera lineup.

    The future looks actually very bright
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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless ...


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    A new mirror less FF Nikon will hopefully benefit from a shorter flange distance which allows to design new lenses much smaller and more optimized for this new system resulting in lighter equipment and better IQ. Who would not want that?
    (...)
    The future looks actually very bright

    I do understand your reasoning, Peter.
    I just happen to dislike the idea of trading the F-mount just to save a few grams and a bit of space.
    And I'm not convinced that a shorter register means better IQ, on the contrary I believe the steep light ray angles use to increase the amount of problems that have to be solved either by software corrections or by offset microlenses.
    A full frame camera with autofocus lenses will never be a pocket-sized gadget anyway, it will remain a tool and hopefully with tool character.
    Anyway, it's good that there are optimists to counterbalance my pessimism

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    Re: Nikon to go FX mirrorless….

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Given the history, Nikon will likely still produce F mount cameras (like they did with the F6) during the transition.
    Like they do with the F6. Last time I checked, it was still in production, around 100 bodies a year, and it's still a current product on their websites.

    I think DSLR cameras will be made for many years still, but eventually, they will end up in the same category as vinyl records, large format cameras and film. That may take longer than I thought only a couple of years ago though. There are no mirrorless cameras out there that can duplicate what a D810 or a D4s does. Not even close.

    What surprises me is that we haven't seen a DSLR with a hybrid viewfinder, something like the one on the Fuji X100 and X-Pro1. Imagine a faster, more pro-like D750 with hybrid viewfinder plus an electronic shutter... there are still possibilities out there
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