Nikon Z7 'issues' (to put it mildly)

[tashley]

Thanks to everyone for your kind help and suggestions.

What a difference a day makes! The panic is over: just turning on EFC has transformed this from a 'WTF is wrong with this piece of crud?' into my new best friend.

I shot some more aperture series with EFC on today, as well as some general images, and am really impressed. In fact because I keep a deep database of the same aperture series shot on many different camera and lens combinations I was able to check it against both the A7RII with 24-70 F2.8 G and against my X1D with 30mm and 90mm XCD lenses.

The results are edifying: the Nikon system offers more pixels and an equal performance to the Sony, with some focal lengths and apertures actually better on the Nikon BUT with the Sony beating it slightly at 24mm at the edges. Overall I'd much rather shoot the Nikon, which is better balanced, lighter and which has nicer file quality.

Against the Hasselblad, not a fair contest, it is remarkably close. In the end the Hassy wins on micro contrast but you really need a monitor with less DPI than Retina to see it. on my 145 DPI LG 4k monitor the evidence is there if you peep at 100% but at prints of 180 dpi or better, only an extremely experienced eye would notice the difference.

More evidence and experience is needed but I am seriously thinking of selling the Sony system, the Hassy system, my Oly EM1MkII system and my Leica CL system. The RX1RII was on the block already. I am seriously impressed thus far and would really like to cut down to just my Phase, one mid sized all-base mirrorless and one compact. The Holy Grail is almost within my grasp, it seems.... just need more lenses for the new Nikon mount.

 

[Thorkil]

Hi Tim
Its nice to hear :thumbup:
And for my part I'll hope, this time to be very tolerant while it was so nice to wear, hear, view, look through,
so a "If it don't want to do, what I want it to do, then I will do what it want me to do..." (and what I'm capable to find out to do).. I expect.
Best Thorkil

 

[docmoore]

I'm also looking forward to some adaptors - particularly for my M mount glass. And thanks for the suggestion about Jim's work on colour, I will take a look. As for Capture NX, I think I'll give Capture One a try first: it has taken me years to uninstall Capture NX and to stop it nagging me constantly with popups. I always hated it, and always will!

Per the matter of EFC being menu-buried, I totally agree: Lord knows how many people will have purchased the camera and been really shocked at the results out of the box. Turning on EFC has made a vast, vast difference, turning it from a dog into a really excellent system, all with one hidden menu item...

There are so many permutations that I assume in six months it will be a different ballgame ... adaptors, profiles and lens options.

I have a M mount adapter on order ... so that I can use my M and R lenses.

Do not want to hijack the thread but thought I would share one of the unsung virtues of this camera ...

[video]https://player.vimeo.com/video/296214409[/video]

Color, DR and cadence all work well.

Bob

 

[ptomsu]

Thanks to everyone for your kind help and suggestions.

What a difference a day makes! The panic is over: just turning on EFC has transformed this from a 'WTF is wrong with this piece of crud?' into my new best friend.

I shot some more aperture series with EFC on today, as well as some general images, and am really impressed. In fact because I keep a deep database of the same aperture series shot on many different camera and lens combinations I was able to check it against both the A7RII with 24-70 F2.8 G and against my X1D with 30mm and 90mm XCD lenses.

The results are edifying: the Nikon system offers more pixels and an equal performance to the Sony, with some focal lengths and apertures actually better on the Nikon BUT with the Sony beating it slightly at 24mm at the edges. Overall I'd much rather shoot the Nikon, which is better balanced, lighter and which has nicer file quality.

Against the Hasselblad, not a fair contest, it is remarkably close. In the end the Hassy wins on micro contrast but you really need a monitor with less DPI than Retina to see it. on my 145 DPI LG 4k monitor the evidence is there if you peep at 100% but at prints of 180 dpi or better, only an extremely experienced eye would notice the difference.

More evidence and experience is needed but I am seriously thinking of selling the Sony system, the Hassy system, my Oly EM1MkII system and my Leica CL system. The RX1RII was on the block already. I am seriously impressed thus far and would really like to cut down to just my Phase, one mid sized all-base mirrorless and one compact. The Holy Grail is almost within my grasp, it seems.... just need more lenses for the new Nikon mount.

I have similar thought in that I might migrate to just ONE system based on the Z7 and sell lot of gear I have like EM1.2 system and some of my Leica M system. Still cannot make up my mind - BUT your findings are helping me significantly! So thanks for that!

 

[PeterA]

I'm happy to read that the Nikon looks good ( lovely video btw Bob) - if any of you blokes find the one system dream we are all chasing - please please PM me!

atb
Pete

 

[tashley]

I have similar thought in that I might migrate to just ONE system based on the Z7 and sell lot of gear I have like EM1.2 system and some of my Leica M system. Still cannot make up my mind - BUT your findings are helping me significantly! So thanks for that!

The DPR review of the Z7 has just been published. It marks it down for AF hunting in poor light (I see no difference between it and A7RIII) and for tracking (which I never use) and for banding, which I have seen a little of in a very pushed file. Its tempting to say that if one had exposed the file properly then that degree of push wouldn't;t have been needed but on balance one would prefer not to see it. Is it going to bother me? I very much doubt it, but it is early days!!!

 

[docmoore]

I worry whenever I push more that a stop in post ... not that the file cannot handle it but I wonder why I did not get the exposure nailed
with ND filter graduate or lighting.

And if the little banding that appears is due to the Phase detect sensors on the chip ... I will gladly take a little banding.

No camera is perfect ... but there are a couple that meet my desires and needs ... and as things improve those desires and my equipment will
undoubtably change.

My one desire is to have a choice for 100% magnification other than the OK button ... which returns the focus point to the center position and
I do not want to give that up.

Thank you all for the likes ... the video will of necessity disappear today.

I have about 20 videos ... mostly landscapes but am doing some work with my church and I am learning just how competent this camera can be.

Bring on those lens mount adapters.

Bob

 

[Thorkil]

..this is what Phase One answered me yesterday, concerning Z7 and 6:

Supporter

Hi - thanks for writing,

we are aware of the cameras exist and we are planning to add them into Capture One soon. Please stay tuned for Capture One releases with new camera supported soon.

Regards

Phase One Support

-----
:thumbup::thumbup::salute::clap:

 

[JPL]

the sooner the better
Thanks for the info...
JP

 

[tashley]

the sooner the better
Thanks for the info...
JP

There is an invisible line somewhere: C1 doesn’t and won’t support a certain Hassy model that is perilously near the z7 on paper - and in real use.....

 

[DougDolde]

There is an invisible line somewhere: C1 doesn’t and won’t support a certain Hassy model that is perilously near the z7 on paper - and in real use.....

What's weird is they support the Fuji GFX models but not the X1D

 

[PeterA]

What's weird is they support the Fuji GFX models but not the X1D

My 'guess' is that Fuji are committed to developing the existing sensor size in what they ironically refer to as 'super 35mm' - Hasselblad are more direct competitors to Phase One so called 'full frame' MF chips.

It was surreal watching the head of Phase One up on Fuji's stage at Photokina declaring total support for Fuji's X and GFX lines - a major signal regarding some underlying powerful changes in industry dynamics I would have thought.

I can now add a 50MP R Fuji with a 63mm lens for under 5K - to put that in perspective it is half the price of a few Leica M lenses in my kit - phenomenal value proposition - maybe the market is going to react to such offers from Fuji and maybe this reaction will impact more on so called 'higher end' 35mm camera choices than 150 megapixel offerings from Phase One and Hasselblad.

The next huge statement from Fuji will be the 100MP IBIS/4k/60fsec etc etc camera 'under development' - meaning 6 months from now. A camera aimed at both photographers needing that kind of file size AND videographers - matched to Fuji's outstanding cine lens offerings and 10 MF lens portfolio all capable of resolving to 100MP.

Phase One are perfectly positioned at the highest of high end tech for large chips Fuji as it has done in <35mm chip sizes will be happy to occupy and own the value end of the market.

Just my 2c FWIW.

 

[tashley]

New iPad Pro 12.9" with Z7

Just a little update: I got a 1TB new 12.9" iPad Pro today and I can confirm that if you plug a USB C cable into the Z7 and the other end into the iPad, you can quickly and easily transfer all your images into Photos on the iPad and from there just add them to LR mobile. When they've synced to the cloud, you can delete from Photos and thereby save duplicate storage. You can even, when they've all synced to the cloud, use Clear Cache in LR Mobile and free up space on your iPad. After that, provided you've purchased the right storage plan from Adobe, the images can live in the cloud if you so choose. Or you can download them later to your desktop machine.

My workflow is these day almost entirely LR CC and I must say that the new iPad Pro (which geekbench says is a lot faster than my 15" mid 2016 MacBook Pro AND my late 2013 Mac Pro - and it really is) is an amazing photo editing machine.....

So now I have a full competence shooting and editing studio in about 1.8kg of weight.

This is real progress!

 

[jdphoto]

Hmm... let me get this right. You're happy with a new camera that has "shutter slap", bit depth reduction and limited shutter speed when not using advertised features on Nikon's revolutionary new camera? This trumps planned obsolescence in favor of cognitive dissonance. Don't get me wrong I've done it too, but digital photography often takes the joy out of the process of creating a photograph because of our obsession with technical perfection. Think of all the photos we've missed...

 

[tashley]

Hmm... let me get this right. You're happy with a new camera that has "shutter slap", bit depth reduction and limited shutter speed when not using advertised features on Nikon's revolutionary new camera? This trumps planned obsolescence in favor of cognitive dissonance. Don't get me wrong I've done it too, but digital photography often takes the joy out of the process of creating a photograph because of our obsession with technical perfection. Think of all the photos we've missed...

Lol... now I’ve solved the shutter slap, I totally love this camera. Really nice files, very easy and intuitive, very customizable without being confusing (mostly!) and did I say, really nice files. I’m not seeing bit depth reduction - where did you get that from? In any event, by the time you get to the 1/2000th second threshold for electronic first curtain, slap is no longer a problem....

 

[Photon42]

There is an invisible line somewhere: C1 doesn’t and won’t support a certain Hassy model that is perilously near the z7 on paper - and in real use.....

the line is what they consider direct competition without license agreement.

 

[jdphoto]

Lol... now I’ve solved the shutter slap, I totally love this camera. Really nice files, very easy and intuitive, very customizable without being confusing (mostly!) and did I say, really nice files. I’m not seeing bit depth reduction - where did you get that from? In any event, by the time you get to the 1/2000th second threshold for electronic first curtain, slap is no longer a problem....

Ming Thein mentions bit depth reduction, but when using full electronic shutter. He also mentions shutter shock with mechanical shutter and IBIS too. This camera needs to mature. If you can only use EFC to get the sharpest pics at a limited shutter speed, what's the point? Coming full circle in a thread is impressive and I hope you enjoy the Z7, but i'm not convinced.

 

[SrMphoto]

Ming Thein mentions bit depth reduction, but when using full electronic shutter. He also mentions shutter shock with mechanical shutter and IBIS too. This camera needs to mature. If you can only use EFC to get the sharpest pics at a limited shutter speed, what's the point? Coming full circle in a thread is impressive and I hope you enjoy the Z7, but i'm not convinced.

Ming Thein is wrong regarding bit depth reduction. Yes, he mentions it in his review, but he retracts that statement in the comment section, search for his replies to comments/questions by SrMi ;-):

"Bit depth on raw files is whatever you set it to – 12/14 bit, compressed or uncompressed. It’s independent of shutter mode, unlike Sony."

He is also incorrect regarding Sony. Sony a7rII had the bit depth reduction in silent mode, a7rIII does not have it.

The shutter shock is a knowns issues with MILC cameras, including all Sonys, which are generally regarded as mature cameras.

I would say that my Z7 is a more mature camera than my a7rII.

 

[ptomsu]

Ming Thein mentions bit depth reduction, but when using full electronic shutter. He also mentions shutter shock with mechanical shutter and IBIS too. This camera needs to mature. If you can only use EFC to get the sharpest pics at a limited shutter speed, what's the point? Coming full circle in a thread is impressive and I hope you enjoy the Z7, but i'm not convinced.

Even a DSLR like the D810 suffered from shutter shock when not using EFC - this was actually the reason why EFC was introduced after the D800/D800E. So mirrorless is not worse in that regard, rather matured. Also the Olympus EM1.1 had some kind of shutter shock, I am happy to say that the EM1.2 has completely gone rid of it.

 

[tashley]

Ming Thein mentions bit depth reduction, but when using full electronic shutter. He also mentions shutter shock with mechanical shutter and IBIS too. This camera needs to mature. If you can only use EFC to get the sharpest pics at a limited shutter speed, what's the point? Coming full circle in a thread is impressive and I hope you enjoy the Z7, but i'm not convinced.

Honestly, it’s an amazingly mature camera. As others have noted, shutter shock is very common and on the Z7 I just use EFC, which has no downside other than a max shutter speed of 1/200th. However, by the time you get to 1/2000th, shutter shock is no longer an issue. So as it turns out, the camera switches to ‘normal’ shutter operation and there just isn’t a problem at all!

I also shoot an A7RIII, a Hassy X1D, a Leica CL and a Phase IQ3 100 and there is absolutely no sense in which the Nikon is any less mature than any of them. In fact I’d say that out of the bunch, it might be the most mature.

The joy of shooting it with TTL and HSS on a Profoto A1, or of hiking out with it and just one really pretty damned good and light and versatile lens is pretty real. Add to the mix a Gen 3 iPad Pro and a USB C cable and you’ve got a really stellar package.