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Thread: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

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    Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I know the theoretic differences. For which reasons did you decide for either Z6 or Z7 and are you happy with your deicision?

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I got the Z7 mainly because of it was first out. Perhaps I would wish for a higher unaffected iso-ability, but then perhaps not, because I got a superior ability of having large solid files, and cropping unaffected is no problem anymore, so I would stay here even if I could trade back with the full value for a Z6, with money back. The affected iso's differ from lightsituations to lightsituations, and the IBIS can do some rather good help even with a f4 lens. Even though, if you are book-keeper-minded looking for it, noise starts slowly after 1.000 iso, but on the other hand, you can also in some situations get away with 12.800iso and still get satisfied (it perhaps depend of the brain and the degree of the instant book-keeper-mindset, how critical you want to be).
    So I don't regret. And I still really do like the Z7, and my thoughts by now still, is like keeping it for the rest of my life..
    KR Thorkil

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    Senior Member Darin Marcus's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    For the kind of photos I take, my D810 hits the sweet spot in terms of resolution and shooting technique (I prefer to handhold, for mobility). This is the main reason why I did not upgrade to the D850, and also why I did not go for the Z7. In addition, the better video capabilities of the Z6 (which I have not yet used other than for short tests) were an important reason. I am still happy with my choice. Although the Z6 has an AA filter, I am happy with the images I get from it. For more resolution I have a D810, for "old style" photography a Df with a Voigtlander prime, and for distant subjects a J5 with an 810mm reach (in FF equiv.) in a small and light combo

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I have used both and compared certain images at base ISO. It's not as obvious as one would think. The Z6 will give you lower noise at higher ISO's simply due to the differences in pixel pitch. The "fatter pixels" would also yield better results with the Z6 for adapting Leica M lenses. The Z7's would be able to crop a bit better and maintain that resolution to a certain extent, but not a huge difference at normal viewing distances without cropping. When I applied a subtle, raw pre sharpener to the Z6 it was very close to the Z7. Yes, that's a trick to improve acuity, but at normal viewing distances it was virtually undistinguishable from the Z7. Also, remember that the higher resolution is less forgiving of bad technique, but far better with IBIS than their DSLR counterparts. So, why did I buy the Z7? It was because I got a really good deal on an OB Z7 from an NPS dealer and paid $1000 less than new. I do tend to crop and thought that to be an advantage for my style.

    Images show two different days. One with 24-70mmf/4 on the Z7 and the other shot with the Nikon 50mm 1.2 AI-s at f5.6 (I think) Both are at 100 ISO. Z7 was at 70mm and the Z6 was at 50mm. So, which is which?
    Lastly, the Z's are simply the best tool for using manual lenses, period!
    Last edited by jdphoto; 2nd March 2019 at 09:09.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I like the absence of the AA filter, low ISO and the high MP count of the Z7. Just as Thorkil I believe I will keep this thing for a very long time. It is incredible.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Why they out the AA filter in the Z6? I moiree a problem seen often in the Z7?

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Why they out the AA filter in the Z6? Is moiree a problem seen often in the Z7?
    I have never seen it on my Z7, and if it has been there I haven't noticed it...

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Why they out the AA filter in the Z6? I moiree a problem seen often in the Z7?
    They probably found that FF sensors with lower pixel count (like the Z6) could show moire.
    If I am not mistaken, all of Nikon's FF cameras without an AA filter have at least 36MP.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Marcus View Post
    They probably found that FF sensors with lower pixel count (like the Z6) could show moire.
    If I am not mistaken, all of Nikon's FF cameras without an AA filter have at least 36MP.
    Right, higher mp cameras don't show moire because of the denser array.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Marcus View Post
    They probably found that FF sensors with lower pixel count (like the Z6) could show moire.
    If I am not mistaken, all of Nikon's FF cameras without an AA filter have at least 36MP.
    Except for Leica-s, all FF 24Mp cameras have an AA filter. I prefer images from sensors without AA filter. While moire can be produced when the AA filter is omitted on 24Mp FF sensors, I have never encountered it (yet) in my photographs.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I tried a Z7 w/24-70 for a week. I shot around a hundred images and got moire on two. Unfortunately I deleted them so canít prove it here.
    Any form with many lines or multiple repeating lines or squares can create moire. It can be dealt with in pp. And in many cases, moire that you see on your LCD or monitor will disappear when printed or enlarged.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SrMphoto View Post
    Except for Leica-s, all FF 24Mp cameras have an AA filter. I prefer images from sensors without AA filter. While moire can be produced when the AA filter is omitted on 24Mp FF sensors, I have never encountered it (yet) in my photographs.
    Well, even with an AA filter on a 24 MP sensor you can get moire:

    1:1 center crop:


    It's usually the result of a well defined pattern in the subject together with a nice sharp lens.
    The example above was shot with a Rokkor 45/2 prime, stopped down to f5.6
    A very similar picture 1 min later with the 24-70/4 zoom didn't show any moire, but is also much less detailed

    Only these are examples with a Sony A7ii and A7, but I don't have a Z6 or Z7 so I can't show any examples from those.
    My Pics
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrew View Post
    I tried a Z7 w/24-70 for a week. I shot around a hundred images and got moire on two. Unfortunately I deleted them so canít prove it here.
    Any form with many lines or multiple repeating lines or squares can create moire. It can be dealt with in pp. And in many cases, moire that you see on your LCD or monitor will disappear when printed or enlarged.
    Hi John,
    so what is your conclusion about the Nikon Z7 in general?

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdphoto View Post
    .....

    Images show two different days. One with 24-70mmf/4 on the Z7 and the other shot with the Nikon 50mm 1.2 AI-s at f5.6 (I think) Both are at 100 ISO. Z7 was at 70mm and the Z6 was at 50mm. So, which is which?
    Lastly, the Z's are simply the best tool for using manual lenses, period!
    I cant tell a big difference. One has a yelloish tint. both look like they received a lot of sharpening for my taste. But both do show same level of detail to me. My guess would be second is Z7.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    The Z6 is the top one and only a small amount of "pre Raw" sharpening was applied and the sun creates more contrast. The Z7 on the bottom pic was SOOC. I think the Z6 would get more "keeper" images, simply because of the more forgiving sensor.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi John,
    so what is your conclusion about the Nikon Z7 in general?
    Itís a winner!
    IMO, it handles much better than the DSLRís. Being able to zoom the viewfinder was huge for me as I like manual focus. Such a tough decision which would involve the sale of my D810. Havenít tried the adapter for F lenses, though. While I could make the 24-70 work for me, and I would hope Nikon has a firmware update coming for the vignetting, the only lens which Nikon has released so far with which I am impressed is the 50 prime. While admitting that I rarely shoot a lens wider than a 50 and really donít care for zooms as I believe them too compromised, I would hate to part with my 70-200/4. Going to the Z series in reality is going to an entirely new system. For me, I would rather try out a Leica adapter than mess with the F adapter. Too many decisions here so I would rather wait a while before doing anything.
    After having a NEX-7 and swearing I would never touch another EVF, the Z7 has completely turned around my opinion.
    And for some reason my computer had more trouble processing the raw files
    than it had with my CFV-50c files. Which gave me pause to maybe investigate the Z6 closer. After all, itís more about the subject and composition than megapixels, right?
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Hi John
    I would like to encourage you to try the FTZ Adapter, while you will find, as I did, that the slim FX 70-200/4 just work extremely perfect on the Z7.
    So will other FX-lenses too, even though I haven't tried them all yet.
    best
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Thank you guys for all the intersting experience regarding the Z6 and Z7.
    Since I also own a higher resolution MF camera allready I decided to go for the Z6 (because of high ISO and video). Now I am curious how it works for me.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I already know, love and work very well with the D850 for the high res end of things so it only made sense to get two Z6's.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I do not want to duplicate threads but having tested the Z6 I've noticed some peculiar imaging characteristic

    The original thread was a d850 vs d810 but has sidetracked into a d series sensor vs Z series question

    I thought that I would flag it up here as well:

    https://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/6...0-vs-d810.html

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Why they out the AA filter in the Z6? I moiree a problem seen often in the Z7?
    I suspect that the reason there is an AA filter in the Z6 is that it is very much a video-oriented camera. Unlike still photography, it is nearly impossible to remove moire in video without resorting to heroic (read expensive) techniques.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Okay, so I got the Z7 on the next to last day of the rebate/trade-in offer. Yep, bye-bye Df. And I will be selling the D810, but I haven't listed it yet.
    Anyway, a question for other Z owners. I'm finding the metering to underexpose by 1/2 stop. Mine does it consistently. Is this baked in by Nikon to protect highlights?

    I've been running tests of the 50 1.8S versus the Otus 55. Interesting. I'm not certain I got the most out of the Zeiss so I'm going to do another test before the big reveal.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Congrats on the Z7 John. It is a great camera that once you're comfortable with the controls it's very intuitive. I sold my D810 too, but kept my 85mm 1.4G. I've adapted Leica M and R lenses with the newest acquisition being a R 100mm APO f2.8 with great success. Personally, I think the Z's are the best for that purpose and the native 50mm 1.8S is incredibly sharp across the frame. I think the comparison to the Otus should be similar, but curious on what you've determined. The build quality of the Z is outstanding too. I'm actually thinking about a Z6 as a backup for client shoots or maybe, just maybe another D810.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrew View Post
    Okay, so I got the Z7 on the next to last day of the rebate/trade-in offer. Yep, bye-bye Df. And I will be selling the D810, but I haven't listed it yet.
    Anyway, a question for other Z owners. I'm finding the metering to underexpose by 1/2 stop. Mine does it consistently. Is this baked in by Nikon to protect highlights?

    I've been running tests of the 50 1.8S versus the Otus 55. Interesting. I'm not certain I got the most out of the Zeiss so I'm going to do another test before the big reveal.
    (perhaps keep the Df, John, with some elegant drawing FX-lenses)
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    (perhaps keep the Df, John, with some elegant drawing FX-lenses)
    I would recommend the same.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Thanks for the comments. About the Df...I bought it in June or July and then we had five months of moving turmoil and I didn't really use the camera until the december holidays. Then I put it back in the closet. It's a nice camera body, but frankly, I prefer my old digital Leica M's for that type of shooting.

    I don't know if everyone is aware of the baked in lens corrections for the S lenses. When I first opened a Z file and went to the lens correction panel there was a notice that the corrections had already been performed. I accepted this and went on with my processing. Then when I got the 50 1.8 I questioned these corrections and just for grins clicked on the drop down menu under "Make" and clicked on Nikon. Low and behold there was another level of corrections! And my S lens popped up below the make.
    Something to watch for. Oh, when I discovered this I went back to a 24-70 image and clicked on it and the pincushion distortion went away. At first it showed the wrong lens but I found the correct one in the menu - it didn't seem to matter for some reason they both corrected the distortion.
    Maybe this will help someone and if I've got it wrong then more than happy to stand corrected and learn some more.

    One more item. I'll be using the 105 2.5Ai, 70-200/4 and 300/4 with the adapter. I haven't actually tried the 105 yet. Somewhere I read where the Ai lens had some problem but I'll find out for myself.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Hi John, are you talking about in-camera-lens-correction or in software, C1 or?
    best

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    Hi John, are you talking about in-camera-lens-correction or in software, C1 or?
    best
    Actually, both. Nikon has some kind of lens correction in-camera so that when you download an image there has already been some corrections done.
    Then you can go to your software of choice (I use ACR) and do a further correction, which I have found to be correction of pin cushion distortion.
    Unfortunately you'll have to use the vignette slider to get rid of vignetting from the 24-70/4. Perhaps a firmware update by Nikon will address that issue.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I found it on the Z7, but it won't alter anything it seems. And still no support from C1, but I will be patiently waiting , while its the only software I use
    The distortion, pincushion and barrel, is rather complex at the 24-70 f4 S, so buildings, specially when tilting, are difficult to correct, so its hard to use there

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    ...just to tell, C1 is updated to version 12.0.3, and the Z24-70S is now supported, but not the 35/1.8S or the 50/1.8S yet, but then its also the 24-70S that needed it the most.
    The very complex distortion in these buildings along the postmans bicycle seems to be gone, but while they are very old buildings, the facades are not totally vertical
    And in the reflection pictures where distortion also were complicated is totally gone..





    Nikon Z7 with 24-70/4S iso64 1/60 f4 49mm NEF-autocorrected through C1pro12.0.3win
    Stockholm it was






    Nikon Z7 with 24-70/4S iso2000 1/60 f4 49mm NEF-autocorrected through C1pro12.0.3win
    Stockholm it was



    thorkil
    (Ps. I feel like a lucky man now, able to use the Z24-70/4S in the city too)
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by D Fuller View Post
    I suspect that the reason there is an AA filter in the Z6 is that it is very much a video-oriented camera. Unlike still photography, it is nearly impossible to remove moire in video without resorting to heroic (read expensive) techniques.
    There's also the fact that with an OLPF you know detail is heavily attenuated past a certain spatial corner frequency, and anything you capture past that is noise - so you can remove it with a spatial LPF on the capture data. On the flip side, because with an OLPF the signal attenuates quickly past the corner frequency, any noise there will stand out like a sore thumb in the absence of signal to mask it. So even with decimation to a video size frame you still need to apply an LPF when you have an OLPF. This is pre-demosaicing, so the image invariably will end up looking perceptually different. (Fine detail near the corner frequency will go kinda colorless as the chroma is low passed.) (Edit: video almost certainly uses on-sensor decimation since it would be impossible to acquire the full 46MP at 60fps. This is as far as I can tell done with skip patterns - subsampling - that depend on the color mosaic, while flipping a set of switches to combine the charge wells of the skipped sites. I wonder if the same is done for lower resolution stills...)
    Last edited by Jan Brittenson; 21st April 2019 at 09:38.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I just ordered a Z7. Yeah, color me odd but I want it for my collection of oddball M42 lenses, some old favorites I'd love to occasionally throw in the bag but which can't be used with Nikon DSLRs. I have a fine old Sony A850 just so I can still use many of my more vintage lenses, but let's face it - it's bigger than the lenses, so neither the A850 or the lenses ever go anywhere.

    The Z7 on the other hand:
    - Takes all my vintage lenses
    - Takes all my Nikkors
    - Is easier to drop in a bag or bring as the only body
    - Provides a compact option to my Nikon DSLRs
    - Is great for video
    - Great nikon backup
    - Sings and dances with Nikon flashes

    Not pleased with the XQD only card. ($200 for a card and USB-3 reader. Thanks, Nikon. Hope Sony gives you a good kickback.)

    So got the Z7+adapter promo bundle and an M42 adapter that will probably do the job. I do wish someone made a decent native mount wide angle around 20mm for it, but I suppose I'll use my Zeiss ZF.2 18 for now. I look forward to putting my M42 Fujinon Fisheye back to good use! Love that lens. Never warmed up to the Nikon 16mm Fisheye...

    It should also be a nice body for the 200/4 Micro, no AF with that lens, but I suppose that's okay.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I don't even have the Z7 yet, still I preordered a 14-30/4 S from B&H. What's wrong with me?
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    I just ordered a Z7. Yeah, color me odd but I want it for my collection of oddball M42 lenses, some old favorites I'd love to occasionally throw in the bag but which can't be used with Nikon DSLRs. I have a fine old Sony A850 just so I can still use many of my more vintage lenses, but let's face it - it's bigger than the lenses, so neither the A850 or the lenses ever go anywhere.

    The Z7 on the other hand:
    - Takes all my vintage lenses
    - Takes all my Nikkors
    - Is easier to drop in a bag or bring as the only body
    - Provides a compact option to my Nikon DSLRs
    - Is great for video
    - Great nikon backup
    - Sings and dances with Nikon flashes

    Not pleased with the XQD only card. ($200 for a card and USB-3 reader. Thanks, Nikon. Hope Sony gives you a good kickback.)

    So got the Z7+adapter promo bundle and an M42 adapter that will probably do the job. I do wish someone made a decent native mount wide angle around 20mm for it, but I suppose I'll use my Zeiss ZF.2 18 for now. I look forward to putting my M42 Fujinon Fisheye back to good use! Love that lens. Never warmed up to the Nikon 16mm Fisheye...

    It should also be a nice body for the 200/4 Micro, no AF with that lens, but I suppose that's okay.
    I hesitated about the Z7 because of the one XQD, but in theory, the one card would give faster performance than defaulting the speed to the second card. Having two card structures would actually increase the percentage of corrupted cards because of the different technologies working within the camera system. XQD is incredibly robust too. Just remember to only format in camera and don't swap cards with another camera. And definitely don't delete lots of photos in camera. Obviously, this would apply to any card, but the Z7 also has a very thin flange distance and wide diameter that in theory would allow for f/0.65 lenses! I'm loving my adapted lenses on this camera more than any other mirrorless camera. Lenses such as...Leica R 100mm APO/f2.8, Nikkor 50mm 1.2 AI-s, Leica M 50mm Lux (pre ASPH) and 28mm Elmarit. are simply incredible on the Z7. Actually, they might have even better performance on the Z6 because of "fatter Pixels". As far as native lenses go, the Z 50mm 1.8S is the sharpest 50 i've ever used. Corner to corner with smooth bokeh at 1.8 - It's on par with the Otus! It's very impressive what Nikon can do with this mount as no other mirrorless camera to date can match those dimensions of the flange, sensor and diameter of the Z mount.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    I don't even have the Z7 yet, still I preordered a 14-30/4 S from B&H. What's wrong with me?
    me too...(but I got the Z7, and I guess you will get it too soon, so nothing wrong..)
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Got my Z7 and took a quick break to give it a cursory lookover...

    The FTZ works perfectly with all AF-S lenses I have. With my AF-D 200/4 Micro it works as expected - no AF, but will control the aperture properly. The AF point changes to green when in focus. Zeiss ZF.2 18/3.5 works perfectly, with VR, but without AF assists other than zooming in. The Rokinon 14 in F mount doesn't work at all; the body goes nuts with it attached and starts cycling apertures. Doesn't work. AI lenses are used stop-down only, not sure about AI-S since I don't have any...

    Took a few minutes to figure out how to configure it, but I set it to auto select VF/rear screen and prefer VF. This way it works just like a DSLR - I can shoot through the viewfinder and it doesn't switch to live view when I take my eye off of it. The rear screen is used for info/menus/review/etc. I like it. For the rare occasion when I want a "live view" I can just turn it back on.

    The EVF is really good (I had held the Z6 briefly previously, enough to confirm I could live with it). Nice and clear and all shooting info is outside the frame on a black border. The resolution is very good and until you get to like ISO 8000 it's not a noisy disaster. I prefer a good OVF, preferably clear 0.72x with framelines, but I can live with this EVF.

    I wish the Info screen were more like the D800/D810 than the D850. The former really give a much better instant view. But it's okay.

    I have an M42 adapter as well but haven't had time to play with it yet, but obviously this is all stop-down.
    A Leica M adapter is on order, as is a SmallRig L bracket.

  37. #37
    Senior Member Darin Marcus's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    Got my Z7 and took a quick break to give it a cursory lookover...

    The FTZ works perfectly with all AF-S lenses I have. With my AF-D 200/4 Micro it works as expected - no AF, but will control the aperture properly. The AF point changes to green when in focus. Zeiss ZF.2 18/3.5 works perfectly, with VR, but without AF assists other than zooming in. The Rokinon 14 in F mount doesn't work at all; the body goes nuts with it attached and starts cycling apertures. Doesn't work. AI lenses are used stop-down only, not sure about AI-S since I don't have any...

    Took a few minutes to figure out how to configure it, but I set it to auto select VF/rear screen and prefer VF. This way it works just like a DSLR - I can shoot through the viewfinder and it doesn't switch to live view when I take my eye off of it. The rear screen is used for info/menus/review/etc. I like it. For the rare occasion when I want a "live view" I can just turn it back on.

    The EVF is really good (I had held the Z6 briefly previously, enough to confirm I could live with it). Nice and clear and all shooting info is outside the frame on a black border. The resolution is very good and until you get to like ISO 8000 it's not a noisy disaster. I prefer a good OVF, preferably clear 0.72x with framelines, but I can live with this EVF.

    I wish the Info screen were more like the D800/D810 than the D850. The former really give a much better instant view. But it's okay.

    I have an M42 adapter as well but haven't had time to play with it yet, but obviously this is all stop-down.
    A Leica M adapter is on order, as is a SmallRig L bracket.
    Congrats on your purchase!

    According to NikonRumors, it seems that the Z7 will get a significant rebate in the US starting on April 28...

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darin Marcus View Post
    According to NikonRumors, it seems that the Z7 will get a significant rebate in the US starting on April 28...
    Of course it will! Right after I buy it!

    I bought it from Amazon, and if it's still within their return window maybe they'll refund me the difference if I ask nicely.

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    My 13mo old dog Zoe... she hasn't experienced the "daddy's got a new camera" truma yet... The other one was smart enough to disappear. Z7 and 58/1.4G at f/4.8, 1/15s, ISO-A @ 1250. (Note to self: set the dang thing to half-stops...) Single AF point over her right eye, AF-C. I must say I really like this camera. Also just picked up a trial copy of C1 Pro 12 to check it out; I used to have version 3.x back in the dark ages, but their upgrade system doesn't handle that correctly and they haven't responded to any of my attempts to reach them, so either I buy it again for $300 or move on and try something else...

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Does the Z6 have better AF? Because the Z7 is pretty poor on AF-C - even my old D800E runs circles around it when it comes to AF-C tracking. Grabbed the camera, 70-200/4, and dog and went to the dog park to see how it would work out; for anything static the Z7 is excellent; for anything moving sideways, I'd say mostly very good; and on subjects moving towards the camera so-so. For a fast subject like a dog running towards the camera, forget it, 0% success rate on any of the AF-C modes; it just can't do it. The D800E gets about 50-70% on the same which I'd consider so-so (i.e. not an action camera if you get paid for results; I'd just get a D5/D500 for this) - the Z7 just flat out can't do it. Focus ends up about 1-2 feet behind the nose. It's not the lens (though it's not a fast focus lens) because if so the D800 couldn't do it either. So any talk of "the same AF system" etc is bull - it's not the same system. Good thing I didn't get the camera for this and I hardly ever shoot fast moving action. (If I did I'd probably get a D500.) It might be okay for sportsball - humans are a lot bigger and move slower than dogs. It might also work better with a longer lens at greater distance (less racking needed), but I think it's pretty clear it's not an action camera. It does track, it just consistently places focus too far back, indicating its control loop is too slow. (In technical terms, the error bound exceeds the range of its PID control, either through lack of measured precision or more likely inadequate sample rate.) At 5fps I ended up shooting in bursts to get sufficient VF updates, in reality 3fps is probably the highest realistic sustainable rate if you need to maintain framing. For higher, use bursts. 3fps is too slow for a dog running towards the camera. I didn't see any improvement in tracking at 3fps either, so there's no technical reason for 3 or 5 or higher, it's just about framing needs.

    100% of "dog running towards camera" look like this. ISO 500, 1/800, f/4, AF-C dynamic at center splat on the dog's nose, 5fps. Results like this abound, where focus is on a rear paw or the tail, or even well behind the dog altogether.



    The second problem that disqualifies it for action is I'd call the dog, it would start running towards me, I lift the camera - and the viewfinder is pitch black. From sleep mode it takes about 2 seconds to wake up, and by that time the dog is already past me, so I very quickly learned to "activate" the camera before I lift it up, by touching the shutter release (and getting about 50 random ground shots as it's a little too sensitive for this) before putting it up to my eye. The wake time is a little faster than the D800 in live view mode, so in other words ridiculously slow. This is unlike a DSLR which has VF image even if powered off, and then comes back on in a fraction of a second even if in power save. If you need to shoot opportunistically (like some PJ work) it's important to disable the viewfinder and camera power save/off modes. Just bring a pocket full off batteries; if you don't you're going to miss shots. By comparison the EVF lag is really a non-issue, it's absolutely fast enough to make no difference.

    Anyway I hope someone finds this useful. Note that this is a pretty hard test that not many cameras, mirrorless or DSLR, will do well on.

    Here's another example; as soon as the movement is a slower (less towards the camera) the success rate quickly climbs up to 100%. 200mm, ISO 560, 1/800s, f/4, AF-C dynamic roughly on the first dog's neck, so slightly left of center as I nudged the joystick to move it a little left for right-to-left chases, and a little to the right of center for left-to-right movement. For something like this, no problems. (Or more specifically, it's all about the photographer and light at that point.)

    Last edited by Jan Brittenson; 27th April 2019 at 10:08.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    Does the Z6 have better AF? Because the Z7 is pretty poor on AF-C - even my old D800E runs circles around it when it comes to AF-C tracking.
    So basically you are saying the Z7 is not the camera for the 2020 Olympics?
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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Jeez, how on earth did we manage for all those years before tracking came along and let the camera do it for us?
    https://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Jeez, how on earth did we manage for all those years before tracking came along and let the camera do it for us?
    We didn't have all those dogs running towards us in sequence hanging on gallery walls. Oh, wait...

  44. #44
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I've said it before, several times, but I can say it again:
    I don't understand why people use cameras with electronic viwfinders for action shots. With modern technology, it's of course possible to make the EVF nearly as good as the OVF for this purpose, and nearly as fast... nearly... if it's not sleeping or if some automatic functionality hasn't switched to the LCD on the back of the camera.

    Optical viewfinders are always on and they respond literally at the speed of light. They also convey one hundred percent, that's 100% for the mathematicians among you, natural colours.

    Replacing an OVF with and EVF is like watching the weather on TV instead of looking out through the window or walk down to the beach to watch the waves. TVs are becoming better too, but the day they replace reality, we've lost something.

    Note to self: Better stock up on DSLR bodies before it's too late

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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I've said it before, several times, but I can say it again:
    I don't understand why people use cameras with electronic viwfinders for action shots. With modern technology, it's of course possible to make the EVF nearly as good as the OVF for this purpose, and nearly as fast... nearly... if it's not sleeping or if some automatic functionality hasn't switched to the LCD on the back of the camera.

    Optical viewfinders are always on and they respond literally at the speed of light. They also convey one hundred percent, that's 100% for the mathematicians among you, natural colours.

    Replacing an OVF with and EVF is like watching the weather on TV instead of looking out through the window or walk down to the beach to watch the waves. TVs are becoming better too, but the day they replace reality, we've lost something.

    Note to self: Better stock up on DSLR bodies before it's too late
    Hah! Jorgen, that is a most delightful way to put it... like watching the weather on television... that is definitely a good metaphor!

    I think maybe too many weather forecasters never go outdoors and look up.

    In 50 years, my grandkids will be shaking their heads when their robots go on strike, and wonder how they ever got to that point in life when one can't even trust their electronic companions. Ah, well, to each their own. If I had the money, I would much prefer a Rolex watch that needs winding and has the time indicated by gorgeous timepiece hands. Drives me crazy having to drag my phone out of my pocket to look at the time, so I need to get a new work watch. No EVF required for that either.

    The Z7/Z6 looks to be a good product for some and while looking exactly like the current competitor offerings, it does appear to be a quality instrument. I wish Nikon well with their bold new direction!
    Dave (GT)
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I've said it before, several times, but I can say it again:
    I don't understand why people use cameras with electronic viewfinders for action shots.
    My purpose was purely evaluation and determining the limits and a reasonable use envelope. If you don't try it, how do you know what the limitations are?

    Also, what's "action" for me might could as well be "static" for you.
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    My purpose was purely evaluation and determining the limits and a reasonable use envelope. If you don't try it, how do you know what the limitations are?

    Also, what's "action" for me might could as well be "static" for you.
    I wrote partly in jest of course, but after having used mirrorless cameras for ten years, the last 2 or 3 years almost exclusively, it's pretty clear to me that there is no silver bullet. Shooting both will give me the best of both worlds. With Nikon, I'll be able to use both, plus shooting film, using the same lenses. So, I'll make a slow transition back to a mixed system, keeping MFT for when I want to travel very light.

    And yes, trying everything out is the only way, a quite enjoyable way as well

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    Cool Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I wrote partly in jest of course, but after having used mirrorless cameras for ten years, the last 2 or 3 years almost exclusively, it's pretty clear to me that there is no silver bullet. Shooting both will give me the best of both worlds. With Nikon, I'll be able to use both, plus shooting film, using the same lenses. So, I'll make a slow transition back to a mixed system, keeping MFT for when I want to travel very light.

    And yes, trying everything out is the only way, a quite enjoyable way as well
    As a "photographer", the definition of which is no longer certain, what someone uses to "take a picture", the definition of which is just as bad, it doesn't really make any difference what gear is used. But, as an artist, the gear selection and mastery of that gear to accomplish the task at hand, certainly does. Why should or would any artist choose to limit one's ability to express oneself to only one brush, only one format, only one camera, or only one subject? There are many ways to play a song using many different instruments, or even none at all. But I am sure some will stick with one rigid frame of mind, because it is a comfort zone.

    On the other hand, Jorgen, I am sure you will agree that over the years, one gains an appreciation of "photography" in the deeper sense of the definition, by not chasing the silver bullet. There is much more to life than that.

    Today, I will dedicate another 8 hours of processing digital images on the computer. Bleh... With my schedule and responsibilities, it is not easy to find 8 hours without working late at night and arising at 3am even on weekends.

    My personal favorite images of all time were made in less than 1/15th of a second and required the simple act of dropping the roll of exposed film off at the drugstore, picking them up the next day and enjoying the prints. It was like a childhood Christmas gift each time we opened the highly-anticipated envelope to see the latest 4x6 prints or Kodachrome slides.

    We have all lost something along the way and have become jaded. Instant gratification and landfill fodder have become our returns on investment in our purchases of everything while urban sprawl increases at an alarming rate leading to ... where?

    DSLR or Mirrorless. Oil or acrylic. This type of brush or that other ((fill in the blank)? It is great to have choices!

    Bring on the latest and greatest Z!... post, and print, your images!

    My only hope is that more people will look toward a deeper meaning of photography along the way. (Hint: it has only a little to do with gear.
    Dave (GT)
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  49. #49
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    Well said, Dave. I can assure you that if I only took photos for the enjoyment of friends, family and myself, I would be using film for all of my work now, except for the snapshots taken with phones. Easy to say of course, as long as reality forces me to use digital, and we'll see when (if?) I retire if I'll do more film later.

    One of the reasons for going back to Nikon for "serious" work is that it saves processing time. The RAW files from Nikon's full frame cameras are extremely easy to deal with, and limit the time I have to spend behind the computer.

    I do feel that we lose something every time another skill becomes obsolete. While it seems convenient not having to do this or that, I'm convinced that humans need real challenges to stay alert. And if we don't stay alert, there will be consequences for other aspects of life, aspects that are much more important than photography ever was.

    And as for photography, I don't do it because it's easy, I do it because it's difficult. If it becomes to easy, I'll do something else instead.

  50. #50
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    Re: Z7 .. Z6 .. Z7 ..z6 ?

    I also prefer OVF (in regards what I see) - however I am tired of all the lens AF inaccurancies which make fine adjustment and service necessary if one wants precise S-AF. Also face detection has helped me to get good chance to have the eyes really sharp when shooting portraits. So I think it is a question in which areas one is ready to accept compromises.
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