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Thread: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jim, there is some new information there? Is there anything mirrorless that prevents anyone to offer lossless RAW? Leica M went CMOS (liveview, mirrorless) recently, for example. It is quite possible. The ball is in Sony's court.
    Vivek, I really don't know ... I do know major manufacturing companies do not take product spec's lightly and set them for specific reasons. Sony has a reason they do their RAW files as they do... whether it is a cost, quality, engineering demand, whatever... it is just not done the way it is for the heck of it.

    Can they offer lossless RAW? I don't know as it is not my field but if it was easy and the demand for it was there it would be done. My best guess would be yes it can be done but at what cost or effect on other specs I don't know.
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Vivek, I really don't know ... I do know major manufacturing companies do not take product spec's lightly and set them for specific reasons. Sony has a reason they do their RAW files as they do... whether it is a cost, quality, engineering demand, whatever... it is just not done the way it is for the heck of it.
    Maybe they're just holding back a few capabilities to help sell folks on the next upgrade cycle.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Maybe they're just holding back a few capabilities to help sell folks on the next upgrade cycle.
    I could easily imagine this ....

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    No, it's not. It's not a "given" any more than ISO performance or AF speed are "givens". They're all design parameters that are implemented in hardware and firmware by manufacturers. Initially, when the a7-series was announced, many were complaining about how few FE-mount lenses were available, and about the poor performance of some (Leica and Canon) adapted lenses. Those weren't givens. Those were design choices made by a Sony. When I worked for Ma Bell, the old AT&T, black telephones were a "given". Until they weren't.

    *******But Joe, the day you pre ordered or currently bought you knew going in what Sony RAW files are..... it is NOT A A7RII SPECIFIC defect... it is a given for a Sony camera that shoots RAW that it is that way right now... can or will it be changed? Maybe but right now it is a know spec going in.******

    The RAW file format of ANY camera is a design choice that is alterable by the manufacturer IF there is customer demand. As users of the Sony a7-series migrate to that platform from Nikon, Canon, Leica, etc., they have certain expectations of a pro-level $3,200 camera. Lossless compressed RAW is one of them. I'm not an idle complainer nor do I consider finding the absence of a lossless compressed RAW option "foolishness". I understand and accept that some photographers shoot JPEG, or don't print their images to 20x30" as I do, or don't post-process their images to optimize color, tone and smoothness. Maybe, in those use cases, lossy compressed RAW (or JPEG) is OK.

    *******Joe, the foolishness is a like customer going to a dealer looking for a RED car and they had none then buying a WHITE one. Then coming home and complaining that it is white instead of red.... we know Sony RAW format going in. If one buy's a Sony this is the RAW format they use........******

    I've owned an a7R since it was first introduced. Now I have three a7-series cameras, one converted to IR. I also shoot with a Nikon D810 and a Pentax 645Z. And I've been shooting digitally since the Sony Mavica. This isn't my first rodeo. As an engineer by education and a veteran of Bell Labs, I'm inclined to question design choices critically. If they don't make sense, I call them out. I'm not alone. I participate in GetDPI because it isn't inhabited by fanboys and photography wannabees. I can point to countless posts where well-respected members critique a lens because it's decentered, criticize a camera because it exhibits a poor service history, or complain about a manufacturer because it doesn't treat its customers with respect.

    ******These are defects or issues a customer would or might not know going in.... the RAW issue is known before one buy's. Far from my first rodeo either .. I started with digital with a AGFA 1280 and film with a Honeywell spotmatic.*******

    And if you've been following the trends in photography, DSLR sales are down and mirrorless sales are up. Sony mirrorless IS competing with Nikon and Canon DSLRs (and Leica rangefinders) and they're taking market share.

    *******Not competing directly apple for apple .....they may take some potential customers away but that is due to a technological change that appeal to buyers who may of bought slr's before. Like saying truck sales are in competition with sports car sales. Because one of these group sales raise or lower as the other one moved alternately does not mean trucks compete with sports cars just the buyers wants and needs changed.*******

    That's why mirrorless cameras from Sony, Fuji and others have evolved into full-featured tools that can now be used by professionals engaged in landscape, architecture, street, portraiture/studio, fashion (tribute to Mancuso), etc. Many of us hope that the convergence of mirrorless, DSLR and medium-format features will continue, and that by being explicit and vocal about our photographic needs, manufacturers will listen. Sony definitely listened between the introduction of the a7R and the a7RM2. Let's hope they continue to listen and evolve their offerings.

    I will continue to campaign for lossless compressed RAW. You can ignore me if you wish.

    *******Joe, I have no intention to ignore you or anyone and campaigning for any change for the better is a great thing and I am all for it. Would I like lossless RAW's? Sure why not if they improve my final output IQ. This is not the issue I was pointing out. What I was stating is not having lossless RAW files is NOT a unknown a7rII specific objectionable condition prior to purchase. Like the above car purchase the buyer knows going in the car he is buying is white not red. The Sony buyer right now knows going in that it does not have lossless RAW files thus can't be considered as a a7rII specific issue to complain about. Yes we can state we would want a different this or that and if this wheel squeaks loud enough these things most likely will be done but as of right now if one pays their money the current RAW file Sony uses is a GIVEN going in. If it is a deal breaker then right now Sony is not their preferred product going in.******

    Joe
    ******Joe, I understand your position and agree with change for the better.... but imo this is not a a7rII product specific objection but is a Sony RAW file as a whole objection.******

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Vivek, I really don't know ... I do know major manufacturing companies do not take product spec's lightly and set them for specific reasons. Sony has a reason they do their RAW files as they do... whether it is a cost, quality, engineering demand, whatever... it is just not done the way it is for the heck of it.

    Can they offer lossless RAW? I don't know as it is not my field but if it was easy and the demand for it was there it would be done. My best guess would be yes it can be done but at what cost or effect on other specs I don't know.
    Fair enough, Jim.

    So far, whatever improvements I wanted (those have been voiced loudly and repeatedly) have been met.

    It only works when concerns are aired and that does not make one an enemy of the system.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Maybe they're just holding back a few capabilities to help sell folks on the next upgrade cycle.
    Could be quite possible Amin...... These major corporations do everything with profit in mind unless forced to do things for other reasons like customer demands or OSHA, etc....

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Fair enough, Jim.

    So far, whatever improvements I wanted (those have been voiced loudly and repeatedly) have been met.

    It only works when concerns are aired and that does not make one an enemy of the system.
    I agree Vivek....... no system is perfect and everything can be improved.... my point was I see this as a specific a7rII complaint all over the web like it was a surprise to those who bought the product and now they want to complain about it. It is manufacturer specific not just a specific product or model and a know spec going in. It is what it is and should not be considered a defect, but a change one might hope for.

    Vivek, you know me... I am far from a fanboy for anything.... I just like a division between things that need or we would like improvement and true product defects.... these long exposure hotspots might be a true defect but the RAW files are not for example. The RAW files are a "wish" or "would like instead" item. Guess it is the old manufacturing management mentality coming out in me...... design intend is rarely ever considered a defect if it does as it was designed to do.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Jim, Part of that is due to the elevated expectations before the camera came out- that it will be a do it all.

    Me, i am looking forward to that A6000 successor and hoping that it will have a full swivel LCD.
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    My opinion is that if you're buying the A7RII and expect lossless RAW to be introduced later with a firmware update, you may end up disappointed. Sony does not have the best track record in that regard.

    However, that doesn't mean that those of us who appreciate and desire that feature cannot ask for it. We have every right to do so, and to support that request with evidence showing why it matters. This is, after all, how products get better. They are not developed in a vacuum.

    Sony's statements have been encouraging; the director of their mirrorless division says that lossless RAW would be a software (firmware) fix, that there's nothing baked into the hardware making it impossible, and that they're looking into it. That along with the release of the A7RII has fanned the fires, and the number of people asking for it seems to be reaching critical mass.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    ******Joe, I understand your position and agree with change for the better.... but imo this is not a a7rII product specific objection but is a Sony RAW file as a whole objection.******
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    I agree Vivek....... no system is perfect and everything can be improved.... my point was I see this as a specific a7rII complaint all over the web like it was a surprise to those who bought the product and now they want to complain about it. It is manufacturer specific not just a specific product or model and a know spec going in. It is what it is and should not be considered a defect, but a change one might hope for.

    Vivek, you know me... I am far from a fanboy for anything.... I just like a division between things that need or we would like improvement and true product defects.... these long exposure hotspots might be a true defect but the RAW files are not for example. The RAW files are a "wish" or "would like instead" item. Guess it is the old manufacturing management mentality coming out in me...... design intend is rarely ever considered a defect if it does as it was designed to do.
    Jim, I don't intend to continue this argument and will offer only this one final comment. I did not say in any of my previous posts to this thread that the absence of a lossless compressed RAW option was a "defect". I brought it up in my initial and subsequent posts in the context of Tim Ashley's question and his outlining both positives and negatives.

    As you pointed out, I knew when I pre-ordered the a7RM2 that it would not have lossless compressed RAW. And I know from using my two a7R cameras that Sony's lossy compressed RAW has its limitations. It's one of those design decisions that I feel Sony needs to address either in firmware for the a7RM2 or in any a7RM2 successor.

    Just as users of the original a7-series cameras identified design choices, well know in advance of their purchases, that could be improved - ergonomics, Auto ISO minimum shutter speed options, IBIS, EVF resolution - we have an obligation to Sony to provide feedback regarding their current designs. As an "old manufacturing management" guy, you know that designs and processes can't be improved without feedback. Saying "it is what it is" doesn't help. Yes, identifying defects is also a responsibility of the user base. That isn't the purpose of this thread, nor my intent in discussing RAW options.

    Finally, camera makers compete for the disposable income of consumers and for the expense budgets of professionals. New and current DSLR users are migrating to mirrorless cameras and smartphones as those tools become more capable. Witness what's happened with video. Even news media pros use smartphones and tablets nowadays to capture video. "The times they are a changin'".

    Joe
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    I think we would all like to see lossy compression be it effects your work or not. I really have not run into the problem but I do want it fixed. I think that's the bottom line regardless . Fix it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Joe and Guy, I am not arguing against lossless RAW files just that in a thread named "Is it a keeper? (a7rII)" that is is not a item that was not a known condition going in so it would not be a camera body specific for keeping it or not. Now it could be a item to some as to IF they currently would buy a Sony body or not regardless of the model.

    Hey I will take any improvement I can get whether lossless RAW or any other improved innovations.

    Joe if I came across as being argumentative with you I apologize because that was not my intent. My intent was more a discussion about whether lossless RAW is a product specific defect or just a item one would enjoy having for whatever reason. Just before my post I was reading a thread on another forum with items that were listed as a7rII issues and honestly 90% of the items listed were imo not defects/issues but in reality known conditions going in, user error, or misinformation that through post after post after post have to some become a false reality of a manufacturing defect or flaw rather than the true reality of the issues. I guess I cam into this thread with my post this morning still perking over what I had read earlier on another forum.

    Joe, I will be happy if Sony listens and offers lossless RAW files either for existing bodies as a firmware or future products. I can't say I have had a issue with the current Sony RAW file type but I have not used a current lossless RAW file from anyone else either. If I don't know it can't hurt me
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    It's a ongoing issue at all A7 bodies. I'm surprised it is on the new one.
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by jamato8 View Post
    Analogue like. :^) One thing that has ruined some images I have seen of digital is the sharp cut off from in focus subject to out of focus if the depth of field is shallow. It looks like someone cut the in focus image out and pasted it onto the photo. I think this has to do with films make-up using silver for most of it. There is a graduation and change due to the nature of what is going on, due to the splattering or diffusion of light as it goes through the emulsion. With digital, much of the time, there is a little but it hits the sensor and while some is detracted, it tends to cut right through and the line of demarcation is obvious. I think with the Sony with the sensor they are using, especially the current one in the A7RII, you are getting back to the very subtle graduation of change, which to my eye, is more natural and what I would call analogue like. IMO.
    Yes! I have thought about this a fair amount. I'm making up terms here, but I call it "digital roll-off" but maybe "digital cut-off" would be more appropriate. When I moved from the Canon 70-200 2.8 i to the ii version, the lens and sharpness was so much better, but I had a lot of shots where you would get that digital roll-off effect in a very pronounced way-- worse than with the i version. It was obvious on screen, but really jumped out at me with large prints. It didn't seem to bother others too much but it did/does bother me. It's sort of like that video effect they do in After Effects where they separate out items-- or at the most extreme, like paper cut-outs. In some photos, there is no sense of depth exactly- more like two different planes.

    I guess I don't understand it well because the effect was worse with the ii version even though that lens was much better/sharper. So it got me thinking that maybe that organic depth of field and actual "roll-off" as opposed to cut-off was softness or flaws in film or other lenses; but I don't think that's correct. I think you may be right about the a7rii somehow being better with this. It's too early to say but I plan on shooting with the 70-200 2.8 ii over the coming week and will think about this . . . Make any sense?

    Regardless, back to the original topic, I now have an a7rii (and a7s) and it's early, but I think it's pretty amazing. For background, I tried out the original a7r many times and tried to love it. I saw the great work that people were doing here and knew it was very capable, but I just couldn't get "there" to gel with it-- speed of operation, focus, feel, and shutter sound . . . I don't have that feeling at all with the a7rii.

    Downsides? The only thing I don't like about it thus far is the EVF. It may be me or maybe I'm missing a setting, but it almost looks very marginally worse to me than the EVF on the a7s. Am I off my rocker on that one? Need more time . . . Nitpicking, but I'm wondering why the new charger is larger and is binary as opposed to showing degree of charge(light on or off as opposed to the gradual three green lights for the charger on the a7s (yes it's a nitpick and I don't really care)).

    Oh yeah. I'm still not a brilliant photographer, can't dunk a basketball, and can't play the cello. I blame the camera for all of this . . .

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    It's a keeper alright - but is it worth the steep premium over its predecessor ?
    Paid 2300 for the A7R and 3500 for the A7R2: that's huge ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jim, Part of that is due to the elevated expectations before the camera came out- that it will be a do it all.

    Me, i am looking forward to that A6000 successor and hoping that it will have a full swivel LCD.
    Vivek, I am sure you are right about inflated expectations but correct me if I am wrong in that Sony did not make these inflated expectations happen but most likely from people fantasies and confusing wish lists and factual specs. I looked at the advertised specs and knew going in what I was spending my money on and how this tool suited my current needs and wants. Granted my list was small and could be easily achieved as all I wanted was to upgrade my hike in scenic system (which was a NEX7 and backpack of glass) with this body and some specific lens choices both OEM and legacy. I made a list, checked it twice, and have to date not been disappointed by anything with the new systems performance.

    I was not looking for it to be the "be all end all" to all other camera/ systems for all existing genre. I have other camera's and system's to cover the other needs and wants I have in all other applications and genre. I have never found a camera/system that can do everything better than any other camera/ system can made in every genre. It just does not exist and imo not one camera/system even comes close to this criteria.. We each have to set our needs and wants as specifically as possible then find the camera/system that bests suits these needs and wants. Camera/systems are compromises and we can feel lucky if we buy the right one for the majority of our needs and wants. For my specific needs and wants that I bought this camera specifically for I can say without a doubt for me it is a keeper

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    It's a keeper alright - but is it worth the steep premium over its predecessor ?
    Paid 2300 for the A7R and 3500 for the A7R2: that's huge ...
    It is steep but would you have said the same about the M9, Bart?

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    It's a keeper alright - but is it worth the steep premium over its predecessor ?
    Paid € 2300 for the A7R and € 3500 for the A7R2: that's huge ...
    Bart I can appreciate your point and I do not know your currency conversion to USD but the list on my a7rII was $3199 I was charged $2785 through Sony USA after paying list for a vertical grip and two batteries that I needed anyway. That was less than I paid for my a99 when it was released. I think the a7r was around $2300 wasn't it when it was released new? If so then I paid about $500 more for a body with IBIS, 42mp, and all the other improvements. Pricey but not a absurd difference.
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is steep but would you have said the same about the M9, Bart?
    Sony is dirt cheap actually it's cheaper than dirt compared to Leica for what a 2 to 3 percent gain maybe back than, not now though. they need to rethink there product line.


    Btw this is my end all together all. It's all I have. Lol
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Jim, no disagreement there at all. I am vry happy using my A7UV, A7s, and my NEX5N monochrome. Too much gear. Way too much.

    However, if Sony were to offer a monochrome camera tomorrow, I will buy it immediately.
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    It's a keeper alright - but is it worth the steep premium over its predecessor ?
    Paid 2300 for the A7R and 3500 for the A7R2: that's huge ...
    A7r - and why I'm keeping it ...
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/494...m-keeping.html
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    ...New and current DSLR users are migrating to mirrorless cameras and smartphones as those tools become more capable. Witness what's happened with video. Even news media pros use smartphones and tablets nowadays to capture video. "The times they are a changin'".
    The adage that the best camera is the one that you have with you illustrates the truth to which to allude. Content is King. If you can get a report out with a single person, that will always win over the report that you don't get out because you can't afford 3 people.

    Similarly, the Sony may have all sorts of corner case quirks, but is no different from any other product and, once you understand its limitations and develop a suitable workflow, the A7r II will deliver (because it is portable and capable).

    I have a DSLR and rangefinder system, which also have their (different) limitations, but the Sony is the most capable for the weight and bulk.

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    I know I share a forums with Arca Swiss, Blad and Phase users but compared to say the 5DSr which is about the same price I don't think it's premium enough to justify the cost.

    IBIS and tilt screen considered too, but I'd only expect this camera to last year in my hands. If that.
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is steep but would you have said the same about the M9, Bart?
    Hi Vivek, presumably yes - BUT at least we got full frame.
    Now I'm puzzled what exactly justifies the price increase.
    However, still love me A7R2 ...

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Bart I can appreciate your point and I do not know your currency conversion to USD but the list on my a7rII was $3199 I was charged $2785 through Sony USA after paying list for a vertical grip and two batteries that I needed anyway. That was less than I paid for my a99 when it was released. I think the a7r was around $2300 wasn't it when it was released new? If so then I paid about $500 more for a body with IBIS, 42mp, and all the other improvements. Pricey but not a absurd difference.
    Hi there Jim,

    apparently you've got yourself a great deal. No denying that, so well done and I'm happy for you
    However, we poor sods in Eurodisney have to pay the full monty including all taxes known to mankind - as usual it seems

    All the very best.
    Bart ...

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Fair enough, Karl-Heinz
    Regrettably, someone else decided that he didn't want me to keep my A7R ...

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...

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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Fair enough, Karl-Heinz
    Regrettably, someone else decided that he didn't want me to keep my A7R ...

    Kind regards.

    Thanks Bart. I remember the unfortunate incidence. Very upsetting, still!

    Of course, I am keeping my A7R, in fact considering getting another A7R.
    Then I could dedicate them and firmly attach them to the APO-R 280/4 and Vario-R 105-280/4.2. On a tripod my rail setup works very well with them in landscape orientation. :-) But that is not conducive to changing lenses in the field.

    According to Amazon, my A7RII should arrive in the time frame of the end of this month to the end of next month. Well, anyway that's their best estimate.
    With best regards, K-H.
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  28. #128
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    Another reason to keep it: The amazing Sony 28mm f2 lens!

    28mm f2 FE lens just arrived from Japan. Paid $400. This lens is amazing on the A7rII, ultra-light, ultra-inconspicuous, ultra-sharp. The camera plus lens comes in under 2 pounds at 30 oz. What a great street lens. Sharpness is great even wide open, it is near the top of the charts over at DxOMark. This lens is sometimes dinged for have a bit of distortion, but this is automatically corrected for jpeg output. Jpegs are fine with the A7rII except when you plan to do HDR processing. With a bit of cropping from 42 mp, this lens also covers the 35mm range. Autofocus is fast and accurate even in low light. With this lens and this body, the promise for mirrorless has been met!
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  29. #129
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    I have never agonized this much over whether to buy a camera. Something tells me I am going to have a moment of clarity once I find a place that has one in stock. Until then, .

  30. #130
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    Re: Another reason to keep it: The amazing Sony 28mm f2 lens!

    Quote Originally Posted by douglaspboyd View Post
    28mm f2 FE lens just arrived from Japan. Paid $400. This lens is amazing on the A7rII, ultra-light, ultra-inconspicuous, ultra-sharp. The camera plus lens comes in under 2 pounds at 30 oz. What a great street lens. Sharpness is great even wide open, it is near the top of the charts over at DxOMark. This lens is sometimes dinged for have a bit of distortion, but this is automatically corrected for jpeg output. Jpegs are fine with the A7rII except when you plan to do HDR processing. With a bit of cropping from 42 mp, this lens also covers the 35mm range. Autofocus is fast and accurate even in low light. With this lens and this body, the promise for mirrorless has been met!

    On my A7s it is quite fast. It is good to hear that it does well on the r2 as well.

  31. #131
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    Re: So, is it a keeper? (A7R II)

    Well I joined the club yesterday afternoon. So far first impressions are that cam feels great in the hand, love the matt black finish and shutter is a great improvement. Pretty happy so far and larger grip makes my Canon TS-E lenses feel a lot better balanced than the previous model.
    David
    Auckland, NZ.

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