usm
Well-known member
Why? Would be interested!!
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Fuji GFX 100ii vs Hasselblad x2d 100c using Color Checker Digital SG
- Thread starter KEVINS
- Start date
Haa! You remember very well, Ray! Yep, same topic, new year. I sold the IQ180 and kept the 5DSr. By the time we all got done trying to solve the issues I think there was something goofy with the IQ180. Processing those images just shouldn't be that hard.
As you can tell I'm still looking for an upgrade so I'm pondering what's new.
My paintings are are getting a lot of international exposure in magazines (Spain and Japan) and one will be exhibited for the International Guild of Realism in Scottsdale, AZ in April so I would really like to get new pics from a better camera before they are sold and out of my reach if I can..
ks
Ray Harrison
Well-known member
Thanks Kevin! You'll find that the cameras you're considering are both great and that the other suggestions of the original line of fuji 100mp cameras will also satisfy your use case. I like the idea of the gen 1 version + lighting that was suggested as a good approach. But regardless, you can't go wrong. I'd recommend trying whatever you can first. I know our friends at Capture Integration will provide the opportunity to try these out (if not the earlier versions, certainly the latest) and will probably apply rental fees to purchase, though I don't want to put words into their mouths 
.
Good luck on both the purchases and your oil paintings!
.Good luck on both the purchases and your oil paintings!
Thanks a lot, Ray!Thanks Kevin! You'll find that the cameras you're considering are both great and that the other suggestions of the original line of fuji 100mp cameras will also satisfy your use case. I like the idea of the gen 1 version + lighting that was suggested as a good approach. But regardless, you can't go wrong. I'd recommend trying whatever you can first. I know our friends at Capture Integration will provide the opportunity to try these out (if not the earlier versions, certainly the latest) and will probably apply rental fees to purchase, though I don't want to put words into their mouths
Good luck on both the purchases and your oil paintings!
I will do some digging and see what's out there with both cameras. That's a good idea about renting, I can't seem to remember that this is an option for testing. I know one gent that works for the IBEX Collection (<= Clicky) and photographs their artists paintings for printing their own giclee's (The giclee's go for $200,000+) and he was using the 100S to photograph them. I know he was experimenting with the pixel shift but not sure if he still uses it. We were comparing our ideas and results about lighting and we seem to have concluded the same thing as our lighting setup is fairly close, although mines on a smaller scale.
Once I dug into the Hasselblad vs Fuji comparison a little more I was going to touch base with him to see if he's still using the 100S or moved to something else.
ks
For superior colour accuracy, there was a Sinar CTM system (Colour to Match), with a dedicated two-filter stage and software taking multiple exposures to match the colour almost ideally. It worked with Sinar backs only which is not so bad, as their CCD sensors are one of the best colour-accurate backs ever produced and the last back from Sinar, the Sinar Exact offers pixel shifts and true colour without any extrapolations at all, all at up to 192 megapixels.
CTM system plus Sinar Exact would be one of the most colour correct systems on the planet but the question is, if getting a 15 years old gear that works tethered and in-studio only is something that @KEVINS would be interested in. The second question remains, if any of the Sinar dealers can still supply a full CTM system with software, licence and patches.
sinar.swiss
CTM system plus Sinar Exact would be one of the most colour correct systems on the planet but the question is, if getting a 15 years old gear that works tethered and in-studio only is something that @KEVINS would be interested in. The second question remains, if any of the Sinar dealers can still supply a full CTM system with software, licence and patches.
Color To Match (CTM) | sinar
sinar.swiss
I would expect the DB's to be way out of my price range unless they were stripped down versions to only do high res/color accuracy versions..For superior colour accuracy, there was a Sinar CTM system (Colour to Match), with a dedicated two-filter stage and software taking multiple exposures to match the colour almost ideally. It worked with Sinar backs only which is not so bad, as their CCD sensors are one of the best colour-accurate backs ever produced and the last back from Sinar, the Sinar Exact offers pixel shifts and true colour without any extrapolations at all, all at up to 192 megapixels.
CTM system plus Sinar Exact would be one of the most colour correct systems on the planet but the question is, if getting a 15 years old gear that works tethered and in-studio only is something that @KEVINS would be interested in. The second question remains, if any of the Sinar dealers can still supply a full CTM system with software, licence and patches.
Color To Match (CTM) | sinar
But, I will do some research to see that the system is in more detail..
thnx..
ks
HHmm, I can't find much on the components of this system. Would there be a more specialized forum/location to search for these or to find out info on them? With a few searches I did do the same websites came up, nothing different..
Where did you find yours at?
One of my basic questions I have is: How does the resolution compare to these 100MP cameras? I see a Sinarback S 30|45 Digital Back that "only" has 37MP which seems small and was released in 2016..
ks
buildbot
Well-known member
Yeah, I don't think I have ever seen a complete system show up on eBay, just bits and pieces.
Sinar gear I general is pretty rare...been looking for a Sinar M mirror module for years now.
I think these, well mostly the second, should be a good starting point for all the different bits and pieces - Sinar is really unique and every little bit has a code, which are all in these system configuration manuals. Searching for CTM brings up a lot of lists of the individual parts, which can be useful for assembling everything from separate sales. Though for this, you may need to purchase the license still? IDK much about CTM at all. I'm sure @daz7 knows a lot more
The Sinarback S 30|45 is the latest back, based on the Leica S7 sensor. This is not the back you would want, as it can only do 37mp with a fairly small sensor and no multi shot. The Exact is a special, special back and is slightly older. It uses a Dalsa FTF 6080C, A CCD with 8000 x 6000 pixels, 48.0mp, 48 x 36 mm. The key is the multi shot capability. It can provide a true, 192MP image, with no color interpolation. It uses a very precise mechanism to do this, which I believe will still outperform a GFX100(s) multi shot capture as the GFX series uses a less precise stabilization mechanism to shift the sensor and seems to not recover (much) more detail: https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100s/fujifilm-pixel-shift-combiner-accurate-color-mode/ - note that to get a similar result to the Exact, it needs to be in color accurate mode, with only a 100p file, and still needs 16 shots!
IDK if I would invest in a CTM system though, as much as I love Sinar. It's pretty old, and pretty near not being to work on modern hardware at all. The Exact is a firewire only back...
It certainly looks interesting but, yea, I don't see it producing better quality/higher resolutions for the additional $$.
Thanks for the suggestions!
I finally found some good results/info on the 100S pixel shift capabilities. Until today all I could find were negative results from individuals using it for landscapes, which won't look good. But Jim's test does show how good it can be for the right situation so this may be a plus for the Fuji. The results he got are pretty remarkable, IMO.
blog.kasson.com
Kevin
Thanks for the suggestions!
I finally found some good results/info on the 100S pixel shift capabilities. Until today all I could find were negative results from individuals using it for landscapes, which won't look good. But Jim's test does show how good it can be for the right situation so this may be a plus for the Fuji. The results he got are pretty remarkable, IMO.
Pixel shift with the Fujifilm GFX 100S - the last word
This is one in a series of posts on the Fujifilm GFX 100S. You should be able to find all the posts about that camera in the Category List on the right sidebar, below the Articles widget. There’s a drop-down menu there that you can use to get to all the posts in this series;
blog.kasson.com
Kevin
Sinar S30/45 back is a different animal and got nothing to do with previous Sinar's Exact or 86h digital backs - it is the same crop (30x45mm, hence name) sensor as used in some Leicas 15 years ago and only nice for video. There is no multishot or true-colour capability. Most probably any modern CMOS sensor would be better than S30|45.
Sinar's newer backs (86h and Exact) are hard to find as the owners generally keep them - they are still great for product, interior and repro despite being 15 years old.
You can get a 75h back quite easily but that's a 33mp back with true colour only and no 16 shot mode. It is a nice back that I would say equals 50 and 60 megapixel single shot backs in its quality. I still have it (along with a 54h) as a backup back and use it from time to time.
Sinar's Exact back is the top of their Evolution range of backs and in my opinion it is one of the best backs for repro if someone does not mind taking 4 or 16 shots per capture.
@buildbot - 192 megapixels shots with Exact are also possible with 4shots only (4L mode) but using interpolation for colour. 16shot mode (16XL) is a true color, 192mp and surprisingly, it works much more reliably than with 54h.
@KEVINS - you can try contacting Sinar dealer in your country or MacConsult in Germany (great shop) that owns Sinar brand now. The folks in MacConsult are very helpful and respond to all enquires very quickly.
I can see that MacConsult shop shows a brand new CTM slider in stock for around 14K euro - you can check with them for any rebates or if they would be able to source an used one for you.
The big question is, how far can you go to squeeze a couple percent of colour accuracy and how much of convenience are you willing to sacrifice? The CTM+86h or CTM+Exact system surely is awesome but nonetheless a bit cumbersome, expensive and dated a bit.
Also, 86h and Exact backs for repro are slightly different from regular backs as they come with a clear glass instead of the IR schott filter in regular backs. You can send a regular Sinar evolution back to Sinar for a glass replacement though.
CTM slider has two filters (A yellow and green shott dual band filters) that filter out UV and IR and it gets precise info from two spectral bands separately and then Sinar CTM software gets a true pixels colour of high fidelity by mixing the information from each spectral band.
It makes sense for a repro photography studio but I am not sure if beneficial for a single user. The end user may prefer an ease of work with a single shots only, great workflow with modern CMOS backs and support from C1 and hardware makers. There are some benefits but it is hard to tell, what your priorities are. You would need to decide or maybe even arrange a demo tour with a good dealer to compare the gear that you are interested in.
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By the way, I am wondering if there is a workaround way to use a Sinar CTM software only without their expensive slider but I am not sure if that would invalidate the licencse plus I have never seen a secondhand licensed CTM software for sale.
Theoretically, it shoudl be possible to replace the slider or build a DYI slider for use in a two shots mode - one taken through the Schotts GG475 glass and the second through Schott's BG39 glass. all while using a back with clear glass replacement for the stock sensor filter.
Theoretically, it shoudl be possible to replace the slider or build a DYI slider for use in a two shots mode - one taken through the Schotts GG475 glass and the second through Schott's BG39 glass. all while using a back with clear glass replacement for the stock sensor filter.
buildbot
Well-known member
If you are thinking a DIY route, it would be much easier to build a multi-shot solution on a Phase One Achromatic platform, and have a filter wheel with whatever bands you want to combine. Much more math/hands on work though. Much easier than reverse engineering the CTM system to sorta work IMO though.
Basically the costs here all scale from 4K for a GFX to IDK, 100K plus if you want to get really, really accurate and fancy.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
The Sinar CTM was an implementation of Dr. Roy Berns (RIT) DualRGB approach. It used filters and a filter wheel and only worked with Sinar backs with Sinar software whose IR filter was removed.
Dr. Roy Berns abandoned the filter based idea and came to work with us (DT) on a light-based implementation of DualRGB that we call DT Fusion. It provides lower color error than the CTM did, works with Capture One and any C1-compatible camera (you don’t have to remove the IR filter), takes ~1 second longer than a typical capture. See his recent research published at IS&T Archiving 2023.
Yes the rabbit hole goes deep.
Dr. Roy Berns abandoned the filter based idea and came to work with us (DT) on a light-based implementation of DualRGB that we call DT Fusion. It provides lower color error than the CTM did, works with Capture One and any C1-compatible camera (you don’t have to remove the IR filter), takes ~1 second longer than a typical capture. See his recent research published at IS&T Archiving 2023.
Yes the rabbit hole goes deep.
Godfrey
Well-known member
Been there, done that, enjoyed the tea. The car's come out quite nicely.
Lancia Fulvia at the Cafe - Mountain View 2023
G
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NEW TOPIC: Lens for the Fuji 100S
I think I have settled on the Fuji GFX 100S so now I would like some opinions on the len(s) of choice.
I am limited by how far away I can get from the painting(s) to get the entire piece in the photo.
This distance is an absolute MAX of 15ft.
With the IQ180 I had the 80mm prime worked perfectly and I was able to get it against the back wall and still get my widest painting (60" wide) captured.
Desires:
1. Very little distortion. The IQ180 was great with little/no distortion but my Canon lens (100macro and others) always had distortion that had to be fixed. Not a huge deal but just realized how great it was to not need to straighten images with the IQ180.
2. Good quality glass to take advantage of the 100mp sensor.
3. Uses AF
4. Works seamlessly with the 100S so does not need to be a Fuji lens.
So with an 80mm lens in mind and the above considerations got any suggestions for a lens?
Kevin
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NEW TOPIC: Lens for the Fuji 100S
I think I have settled on the Fuji GFX 100S so now I would like some opinions on the len(s) of choice.
I am limited by how far away I can get from the painting(s) to get the entire piece in the photo.
This distance is an absolute MAX of 15ft.
With the IQ180 I had the 80mm prime worked perfectly and I was able to get it against the back wall and still get my widest painting (60" wide) captured.
Desires:
1. Very little distortion. The IQ180 was great with little/no distortion but my Canon lens (100macro and others) always had distortion that had to be fixed. Not a huge deal but just realized how great it was to not need to straighten images with the IQ180.
2. Good quality glass to take advantage of the 100mp sensor.
3. Uses AF
4. Works seamlessly with the 100S so does not need to be a Fuji lens.
So with an 80mm lens in mind and the above considerations got any suggestions for a lens?
Kevin
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Doppler9000
Active member
If you want AF, and good corner-to-corner resolution, you are best served by a native Fuji lens. The 80mm prime is a f/1.7 lens. The 45-100mm zoom covers this range, as well. The 80mm has savings of $450, £550, and 500 euro at the moment.
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Comparing the 80mm prime with the 45-100 zoom, how much sharpness would the image be losing, if any?
The 45-100 would allow some options when it comes to distance from the subject but not sure if sharpness/details would be noticeably different between a prime vs zoom with today's lens quality.
ks
The 45-100 would allow some options when it comes to distance from the subject but not sure if sharpness/details would be noticeably different between a prime vs zoom with today's lens quality.
ks