IQ5 rumors

[Paul Spinnler]

The industry is at the mercy of what Sony supplies. The hard cap on 36mm seems like an efficiency point to be able to cut sensors to different lengths while maintaining same height. I’ve posted a more detailed overview in the poll thread.

It remains to be seen if P1 can get a custom order going. If so, it would mean a 275 megapixel sensor which would be incredible and staggering.

I mean just think about scanning negative film with an IQ5-275 and Rodie HR 105 on an Alpa Macro setup. That's instant drum scanner with beautiful tonality and detail in the way grain is captured.

 

[f8orbust]

My 2c. 1) If this is the sensor, then it's going to be 3:2, with the 4:3 ratio available via cropping in-camera (and yeah, I know this effectively makes the sensor smaller). Just no way Sony will fabricate a sensor because a (relatively small) number of photographers prefer 4:3; and, 2) Don't see any way P1 will offer this to IQ4 users as a $25k trade-in. I mean, what will they do with 'all' those IQ4s ? Resell them ? To who ? Rental houses won't take them, they want the latest tech since that's what their clients demand. So that just leaves individuals like you and me. And there's no way in the world in 2025 I would stump up north of $20k for a used bit of 7 year old tech when I could buy a new HB for $8k (or, in 2025, a used one for $6k).

 

[wattsy]

at least not before we see the (or:a) CVF 100C Mark II, perhaps at the end of next year.

I don't think there is any chance of another CVF back upgrade appearing by the end of 2025. The current 100MP version only appeared a couple of months ago. Hasselblad still have many things to sort with their existing product lines.

 

[wattsy]

I mean Hasselblad backs are now sold over the counter behind the drone section in shopping malls besides the Body Shop ...

To be fair, DJI/Hasselblad are only copying the Leica retail approach, even if the shops aren't all appearing in the same kind of upmarket locations as Leica (Mayfair, etc.). You can go in Selfridges or Harrods in London and buy a Leica M11 or SL3 after browsing the drones and iPads in other areas of the electronics department. The same kind of (mostly non-expert) people will be selling you any of those products.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

To be fair, DJI/Hasselblad are only copying the Leica retail approach, even if the shops aren't all appearing in the same kind of upmarket locations as Leica (Mayfair, etc.). You can go in Selfridges or Harrods in London and buy a Leica M11 or SL3 after browsing the drones and iPads in other areas of the electronics department. The same kind of (mostly non-expert) people will be selling you any of those products.

Agree, but both have a distinctly different approach to camera sales via self branded stores whereas Canon Nikon Fuji are still focusing on dealers or being present in other stores, but not in self branded stores themselves. It is clearly a strategic decision.

I feel however in the case of Hasselblad it is playing dirty towards their dealers if they disadvantage them vs B&H and through a Webshop with dramatically shorter shipping times.

Also interesting here is that it is very unlikely that we will ever see P1 backs sold in Harrods or besides the Body Shop.

I find it just interesting to see how each brand follows a strategy based on the clientele they are after. Hasselblad clearly is inspired by Leica’s successful foray into self branded (luxury) retail. Leica posted best results ever last year, which is a bit anti-cyclic, but shows that there are many enthusiasts willing to pay extra for a beautiful camera. I mean many optics from Leica cost as much as a luxury watch.

 

[jduncan]

You are not understanding my point ...

Of course one can mask it, but then the sensor area is smaller. Dave also already mentioned the 4:3 equivalent sensor area. Pls. read what was written earlier. You seemingly don't get the point.

The point is that if you want a 4:3 aspect ratio you need to crop and for the same FoV you need a shorter focal length.

The beauty of the IQ4 is the large uncropped sensor area and the resulting look in 4:3, uncropped. All lenses become less wide when cropped and DoF changes.

The resolution to me is less important than having full 54x40mm sensor size in one shot.

Also for stitching it is super annoying. You essentially can only stitch 16mm left right in portrait mode because you need 4mm overlap for Photoshop in a two shot stitch.

A big part why one would pay so much for the large sensor is because it was truly 54x40mm.

Hi,
I fully understand that you don't like the idea of a cropped small area, but it's what P1 asked when they release a camera you should crop to zoom.
Phase One users defended the design. I don't know in what numbers they buy the camera, but they seem to love it in paper.

Also, you may not like that the cropped sensor will be smaller than 54x40 but it's far bigger than no sensor. If you are willing to shoot sometimes on 3:2 mode it's close to 90% per unit area.

My positive take on the sensor is not based on its ideal nature, but on the fact that it seems to be an advanced sensor (we don't know how the readout will look)
capable of competing with next-generation 36mm sensors in terms of color and resolution.

Before this announcement we did not know if MF camera sensors were profitable for Sony: will they drop it and go industrial ony? will they leave the market to Dalsa?

I don't mind if P1 decides not to use the sensor, and I understand that it will be a PR nightmare. I also understand that the FoV will change, and I would like if Sony to introduce the first non-crop 645 sensors ever (56*41.25) or even better a 56x56mm sensor with 16bit fo dynamic range a global shutter, and base ISO 30. I would love if Hasselblad built an amazing back at a reasonable price based on it, but it's not what we got.

I would also like it if people stopped killing each other in nonsensical wars.

My point is that it seems to be a fantastic sensor that could open a future for MF cameras. It's bigger than the 44x33 mm sensors, it allows for 48x36 cropping, twice the area of 35mm sensors, and in digital back applications allows for 53x36mm, say for a Hasselblad V or a technical camera.

Sweet. Sorry but we were not sure if the old sensors were the last of them, I can't avoid being positive.

Best regards.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think its now a game of wait and see. I have the hope that they'll be able to do a custom order with Sony and get 54x40 sensors.

We will see in the next 12-24 months. They most likely already have samples and are working on an IQ5 as we speak.

Its gonna be a 2025 event, I hope, coinciding with the S4.

 

[jduncan]

I think this is not gonna happen anytime soon due to economics - initial pricing from Sony will be such that only P1 will buy them in quantities. They may even secure exclusivity for 35mm and above for 3-5 years. The reason actually the others never took the large one is also most likely the sales price from Sony and the fact that they made a decision at one point to be in crop MF which means smaller cameras, optics and higher profitability due to a more favorable sensor cost element and larger demand in the sub-10k segment.

Fuji and Hassy cameras have become quite "cheap" ... where is there cash in there for a large new chip fresh off the plant?

The Hassy back is 8k. There's really not much room in that for an expensive sensor. I am almost certain the big sensor costs more than 5k just for the sensor. That's why again it will be a P1 only party ...

We'll get a 3:2 IQ5-250 I am afraid.

3:2 is a worst case scenario, limiting in stitching and completely kills the wish for an IO5. It also means to do a simple full pano stitch on the STC you need to shoot 3 images left right and it also means that if you want to crop to 4:3 in one shot (if anything moves in your image) all lenses become longer.

Its not an advantageous format TBH; if used in repro you will also always crop except in 35mm scans.

Hi,
I hope you are wrong about the P1 only part, that will limit sales and could make Sony reject the expenses. Nothing is blocking Leica from using it for a future mirrorless platform, and Hasselblad can introduce it as a big brother to the CFV, at say 15K.

Best regards,

 

[jduncan]

I mean Hasselblad backs are now sold over the counter behind the drone section in shopping malls besides the Body Shop ... the S4 will be priced higher, but the build and feature set will be very unique and compelling.

Hi,
Yes, and that is good. They are also sold in places like B&H and Adorama etc.

To put it funnily, cameras are not part of a competition that includes who has a bigger you know what, or whose milkshake brings more boys to the yard (to be inclusive)

Most camera buyers, including myself, want a camera we can love, that has the feature set we need to enjoy it, and we don't care if the lenses don't have a name that is equivalent to Haagen Dazs

Retail sales also mean that you will be able to go to a DJI store in Panama, talk to someone who knows about the system, and buy an X2D, or have it repaired, nice global sales and support.

There is a place for specialist dealers, that can't not only sell the camera but help you with technical camera suggestions, and information suggestions, and in general provide a 1 to 1 service and support, like a family doctor. They know what you shoot, how you shoot it and what is your budget.

I we want MF to go from "barely surviving" to thriving, they need to expand the user base, and that means selling to people who are not part of Dante's secret society

Best regards,

 

[wattsy]

Agree, but both have a distinctly different approach to camera sales via self branded stores whereas Canon Nikon Fuji are still focusing on dealers or being present in other stores, but not in self branded stores themselves. It is clearly a strategic decision.

...

I find it just interesting to see how each brand follows a strategy based on the clientele they are after. Hasselblad clearly is inspired by Leica’s successful foray into self branded (luxury) retail. Leica posted best results ever last year, which is a bit anti-cyclic, but shows that there are many enthusiasts willing to pay extra for a beautiful camera. I mean many optics from Leica cost as much as a luxury watch.

Actually Fuji have a self-branded store in Covent Garden but I agree with your points generally. I think Hasselblad need to be careful trying to emulate Leica because the latter has always had a more niche professional following and a strong following in the luxury goods sector (gold plated M6 bodies, etc. and the one-time part-purchase by Hermès) whereas Hasselblad has been the quintessential professional camera since the 1950s offering everything a professional might need. Now they sell a very fine but arguably compromised range that doesn't even include a cable release accessory for the flagship camera.

 

[dchew]

Hi,
I fully understand that you don't like the idea of a cropped small area, but it's what P1 asked when they release a camera you should crop to zoom.
Phase One users defended the design. I don't know in what numbers they buy the camera, but they seem to love it in paper.

Also, you may not like that the cropped sensor will be smaller than 54x40 but it's far bigger than no sensor. If you are willing to shoot sometimes on 3:2 mode it's close to 90% per unit area.

My positive take on the sensor is not based on its ideal nature, but on the fact that it seems to be an advanced sensor (we don't know how the readout will look)
capable of competing with next-generation 36mm sensors in terms of color and resolution.

Before this announcement we did not know if MF camera sensors were profitable for Sony: will they drop it and go industrial ony? will they leave the market to Dalsa?

I don't mind if P1 decides not to use the sensor, and I understand that it will be a PR nightmare. I also understand that the FoV will change, and I would like if Sony to introduce the first non-crop 645 sensors ever (56*41.25) or even better a 56x56mm sensor with 16bit fo dynamic range a global shutter, and base ISO 30. I would love if Hasselblad built an amazing back at a reasonable price based on it, but it's not what we got.

I would also like it if people stopped killing each other in nonsensical wars.

My point is that it seems to be a fantastic sensor that could open a future for MF cameras. It's bigger than the 44x33 mm sensors, it allows for 48x36 cropping, twice the area of 35mm sensors, and in digital back applications allows for 53x36mm, say for a Hasselblad V or a technical camera.

Sweet. Sorry but we were not sure if the old sensors were the last of them, I can't avoid being positive.

Best regards.

I’m kind of excited about it (and I didn't think I would be) IF they fix the nagging annoyances on the current back: screen, WiFi, remote LV, zero latency, etc. It might change my std shot to a 3-image 18mm shift Right/Center/Left. 72x54 which is still 4:3, only a 90mm image circle and whopping 490 mpx. Does anyone need 490 mpx? I don't know but it sounds cool.

That 43xl just became a smart purchase! Well, maybe not "smart;" how about "less dumb?" It becomes a 21-32mm zoom in 135 "FF" format:


My P1 thoughts with this sensor: It doesn't bode well for the XF's future because it will be harder to separate it from HB and Fuji. But I wonder how many are buying an XF today instead of an X2D or GFX anyway? And for those that are, is it really because of the sensor difference? In a technical camera scenario where you can shift and stitch images, it's interesting. So P1's "bespoke" division becomes even more focused on the XT and other technical cameras. All this fits with what we are seeing from them. They probably knew about this a while ago.

I just hope they find a way to balance promoting their own cameras without alienating other technical camera systems because I'm biased. And, it keeps the pie bigger.

Clearly I'm bored sitting in a hotel...

Dave

 

[ThdeDude]

I don't think there is any chance of another CVF back upgrade appearing by the end of 2025. The current 100MP version only appeared a couple of months ago. Hasselblad still have many things to sort with their existing product lines.

I ignored the fact that the CVF-100C was not released together with the X2D 100C, but about 18 month apart. With my assertion of a Mark II CVF-100C at the end of 2025 I made the unstated assumption that it would be released together with a Mark II X2D 100C. (HB has followed a three-year cycle in the release of X cameras.)

 

[Paul Spinnler]

There's one thing that's often forgotten – they seem to try to become independent a bit of Rodenstock by commissioning own designs with help of SK design services and by using their Mamiya factory in Japan for lens production.

The 80 MK II for XF, the 72 MK II for repro and now the 150 for XT are all new lenses relatively speaking. The 80 MK II was the test balloon I suppose to see whether it makes sense to invest in the XF - unfortunately it means no 55 MK II given low demand – and the 72 MK II is a re-hashed SK design with FL for sharpness at all magnifications.

All I am saying is that we might see more new SK designed, P1 branded lenses. I am thinking about 72 MK II for XT, 120 ASPH re-hash, etc.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I ignored the fact that the CVF-100C was not released together with the X2D 100C, but about 18 month apart. With my assertion I made the unstated assumption that a Mark II version of both would be released at the same time.

History has shown tha P1 will get first dibs for a while and the only one with the super large chip, most likely because of sensor unit costs as % of total product sales value. Ie a 5k chiop in an 8K product doesnt work given other costs plus need to make money; 5k and 45k list works.

So it looks like:

2025 - IQ5 250/275 depending on sensor area, let's hope its the 54x40
2025 - S4 with either 180 or 220 megapixels (220 would be an earth shattering development for the industry - close to P1, apart from the rest of crop MF)
2026/27 - Crop MF re-hash with 180 or 220 megapixels answer to S4 and P1
2025/26 - Sony at 110
2025/26 - M12 at 110
2026/27 - M1M at 110
2026/27 - SL4 at 110

Phase will be the only one with 250/275 super large colour and achromatic backs.

I hope its 275. My pain point for upgrading with trade in is 25k - hope they don't change that for loyal P1 customers.

 

[ThdeDude]

And there's no way in the world in 2025 I would stump up north of $20k for a used bit of 7 year old tech when I could buy a new HB for $8k (or, in 2025, a used one for $6k).

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Actually Fuji have a self-branded store in Covent Garden but I agree with your points generally. I think Hasselblad need to be careful trying to emulate Leica because the latter has always had a more niche professional following and a strong following in the luxury goods sector (gold plated M6 bodies, etc. and the one-time part-purchase by Hermès) whereas Hasselblad has been the quintessential professional camera since the 1950s offering everything a professional might need. Now they sell a very fine but arguably compromised range that doesn't even include a cable release accessory for the flagship camera.

As long as they are not besides drones in Walmart we are good, but clearly picking up a Hassy camera in the shopping mall besides the (fast) food court (presumably) and Body Shop/Levi's store is quite different from 15 years ago where you'd drive to the outskirts or some industrial area to meet the pro photo dealer by appointment to make some test shots with the 39 megapixel system in a photo studio environment; or home delivery and personal introduction for a few hours as happened with my 50 megapixel system back in the day.

Only thing that's missing from their webshop experience is Amazon like overnight or same-day shipping for their X cameras and backs, lol, with 48m payment plan option at checkout. Then we are literally at the Uber Eats level of retail commodification of the brand.

I distinctly remember the size of the H zoom and being very impressed about that and how carefully I handled the 300mm I was in awe with. And ordering a H system was an experience - it was not readily available ... I waited weeks for my delivery and was super excited. I moved to Leaf thereafter who introduced the world's first 80 megapixel system.

Times change!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well if a new IQ5 is 45 and with trade in of IQ4 it’s 25 then the residual value is automatically in the region of 20 plus minus.

As long as there are people who will want a 275 megapixel blazing fast back, and I think there are plenty, market value will stay high.

The trade in value they offer strongly determines the market value of the IQ4 as it is still the best back out there, P1 will have first dibs on 811 Sony BSI tech and then given there’s no alternative the market value will stay put.

I think the RoI on P1 backs is exceptionally good. I always traded in my prior gen since 2010. And residual value of latest gen backs has always stayed high, especially with the IQ4.

I haven’t seen a massive change in IQ4 prices. It’s still phenomenal. And so is its retention of value tbh.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Well if a new IQ5 is 45 and with trade in of IQ4 it’s 25 then the residual value is automatically in the region of 20 plus minus.

As long as there are people who will want a 275 megapixel blazing fast back, and I think there are plenty, market value will stay high.

The trade in value they offer strongly determines the market value of the IQ4 as it is still the best back out there, P1 will have first dibs on 811 Sony BSI tech and then given there’s no alternative the market value will stay put.

I think the RoI on P1 backs is exceptionally good. I always traded in my prior gen since 2010. And residual value of latest gen backs has always stayed high, especially with the IQ4.

I haven’t seen a massive change in IQ4 prices. It’s still phenomenal. And so is its retention of value tbh.

The upgrade to IQ4 150 from the previous top of the line IQ3 100 Trichromatic upon launch in 2018 was $18,990. Of course, this could still be higher with an IQ5 launch, time has elapsed, costs are higher 6 years later, but we'll see.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well if it’s 18.9k it'll be a huge comeback for them. There are literally thousands of IQ4s in the waiting for an upgrade. It looks like the poll is quite clear in that people do not want anything else than the highest resolution and utmost dynamic range with good battery life and snappy operations. So no need to reinvent the chassis or anything else - just make sure the system is high performing (and pls. bluetooth so one can trigger it independently of wifi, plus useable HDMI implementation, meaning manual focus to zoom for XT lenses like on Leica SL cameras when you adapt M glass).

Poll is also clear tha no.1 ask is to keep the P1 USP intact, namely, to be the sole 54x40mm commercially available high res chip available for photography.

If they do 275 (full frame), blazing fast processing (menu is fast, startup is fast), with a bit better DR then it'll lead to a huge revival.

I mean let alone for negative scanning the 275 would be incredible. That's one shot Heidelberg drum scanner right there.

 

[getscreen]

Yeah, there's definitely some buzz about an IQ5 200 possibly being in the works, but nothing concrete yet. Haven't spotted anything solid on Sony's roadmap either. It's mainly speculation at this point.