IQ5 rumors

[Paul Spinnler]

I am hopeful they get a custom size for photography. 36mm would be disappointing indeed.

I think I would not upgrade if the sensor gets smaller. It is one of the key advantages of MF to not be in the 35mm 3:2 format …

 

[buildbot]

Who said this will be the size of the photo sensor - they can cut it too to 54x40; all that matters is that we get to a lower pixel pitch with same or better DR

Sorta, I think that would still require some new masks ($$$). Though I doubt they will even then - IMX811 is the replacement for the IMX411 which replaced IMX211...

And 56x36mm is a size that existed before even, with the Dalsa sensor in the Aptus II 10/Afi 10.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

So this is it? We get a 3:2 sensor? Whose idea was this ...

Its literally the only thing bothering me with the S3 and why I like the IQ4 platform so much. The 54x40 format is close to 4x5 which is a more large format look.

That's a huge downer for one shot documentary photography.

54 x 36 looks horrible to me. The whole fine art photography is based on the large format look which is an inheritance from most commonly used legacy formats 645, 6x7, 4x5, 8x10.

I really think I wouldn't bother with an IQ5 if it meant losing the 54x40 sensor size and aspect ratio. 54x40 also gives you a completely different look for environmental portraiture. If you want to capture someone in 3:2 in a frame filling manner with additional space above and below the 3:2 aspect ratio doesn't look as balanced in my view as 4:3.

Really disappointing. The only explanation for this I have is that this is an efficiency measure as the short end of 36mm is the long end of 35mm 36x24mm.

I've just 3:2ed some of my favorite images - 4mm is a lot.

What do you guys think??

 

[jduncan]

3:2 image ratio - no thanks.

Hi,
Maybe we should give them a chance. We were concerned about the future of MF sensors. Even if this is not for the consumer market is great news. It could go into a fantastic Leica or even a Phase One.
Based on the diagonal 64.84mm, and supposing that the pixels are square it gives us 53.71mm x 36.32mm aprox. A nice sensor with a resolution that can withstand the next
generation Canon sensor.
We should be celebrating, let Dante have an ugly evening.

Best regards,

 

[jduncan]

Who said this will be the size of the photo sensor - they can cut it too to 54x40; all that matters is that we get to a lower pixel pitch with the same or better DR

Hi,

No, I did the math too and if the pixels are squares it leads to 53.71mm x 36.32mm a sensor Leica can dream of.
Someone talks about using it for a 48mm x 36 mm masked it will lead to a beautiful 200MP sensor.
Best regards

 

[jduncan]

Sorta, I think that would still require some new masks ($$$). Though I doubt they will even then - IMX811 is the replacement for the IMX411 which replaced IMX211...

And 56x36mm is a size that existed before even, with the Dalsa sensor in the Aptus II 10/Afi 10.

Hi,
Yes, I remember that sensor. It was a time when MF was far still vibrant (it seems to be gaining momentum again). The Leaf backs were sweet with a different color rendition.
Cameras have advanced so much, but part of the love for the art and fight to get the image and the expertise have died a little. No that I want to go back to the days of super heavy
lenses and slow AF so bad Manual was a better option basically always . We need the people who in the past would have never entered photography because of
technical complexity plus art (not a usual combination).

Best regards,

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I am sorry, but the aspect ratio and sensor area is one of the absolute core reasons to go to IQ4. I would not have bought an IQ4 that's 3:2.

It makes a huge difference, especially with moving subjects in the scene where you can't stitch. For many, many years full frame Phase sensors where at 54x40 - especially for one-shot portraits that's nice because you get a more natural look.

If one is forced into 3:2 one can as well await the Leica S4 which will have the cropped version of this in 2025.

The Apo F2 S optics are going to be fantastic.

IMHO this is a serious mistake if they go 3:2 for the next gen. I most likely to not upgrade then. The 54x40mm is the whole point that sets it apart.

At these resolutions you can also just uprez, so the IQ4 will be enough.

Pls. take your IQ4 one shots and crop 4mm away at the bottom and top. Its a lot and a totally different, "cheaper" 35mm look.

 

[jduncan]

So this is it? We get a 3:2 sensor? Whose idea was this ...

Its literally the only thing bothering me with the S3 and why I like the IQ4 platform so much. The 54x40 format is close to 4x5 which is a more large format look.

That's a huge downer for one shot documentary photography.

54 x 36 looks horrible to me. The whole fine art photography is based on the large format look which is an inheritance from most commonly used legacy formats 645, 6x7, 4x5, 8x10.

I really think I wouldn't bother with an IQ5 if it meant losing the 54x40 sensor size and aspect ratio. 54x40 also gives you a completely different look for environmental portraiture. If you want to capture someone in 3:2 in a frame filling manner with additional space above and below the 3:2 aspect ratio doesn't look as balanced in my view as 4:3.

Really disappointing. The only explanation for this I have is that this is an efficiency measure as the short end of 36mm is the long end of 35mm 36x24mm.

I've just 3:2ed some of my favorite images - 4mm is a lot.

What do you guys think??

Hi,
If P1 decides to use it, they can Mask the sensor in software. The resolution will be close to 211 MPixels and we know P1 has no issue asking people to crop aggressively as they did with the fixed lens mirrorless camera.

The other option is Leica. With this sensor, they could introduce a MF mirrorless camera to eat them all, with an adapter for the old MF Leica lenses. It will be a total delight.
They have the resources and people will pay whatever.

I would love if Hasselblad adopted the sensor for the CFV, crop when used with X lenses and the mini camera, and full sensor readout when using it on a legacy camera.
A delight again, not as much as the Leica but probably less expensive and more practical.

This is great news.

Best regards,

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Hi,
If P1 decides to use it, they can Mask the sensor in software. The resolution will be close to 211 MPixels and we know P1 has no issue asking people to crop aggressively as they did with the fixed lens mirrorless camera.

The other option is Leica. With this sensor, they could introduce a MF mirrorless camera to eat them all, with an adapter for the old MF Leica lenses. It will be a total delight.
They have the resources and people will pay whatever.

I would love if Hasselblad adopted the sensor for the CFV, crop when used with X lenses and the mini camera, and full sensor readout when using it on a legacy camera.
A delight again, not as much as the Leica but probably less expensive and more practical.

This is great news.

Best regards,

You are not understanding my point ...

Of course one can mask it, but then the sensor area is smaller. Dave also already mentioned the 4:3 equivalent sensor area. Pls. read what was written earlier. You seemingly don't get the point.

The point is that if you want a 4:3 aspect ratio you need to crop and for the same FoV you need a shorter focal length.

The beauty of the IQ4 is the large uncropped sensor area and the resulting look in 4:3, uncropped. All lenses become less wide when cropped and DoF changes.

The resolution to me is less important than having full 54x40mm sensor size in one shot.

Also for stitching it is super annoying. You essentially can only stitch 16mm left right in portrait mode because you need 4mm overlap for Photoshop in a two shot stitch.

A big part why one would pay so much for the large sensor is because it was truly 54x40mm.

 

[dchew]

I wonder how big the image circles are on the GFX and XD lenses. If they are big enough, the "cropped" sensor could be 36x48 4:3. That would be pretty sweet at 220mp. They could buy the IMX811 and just have a default crop. The HB digital back would be killer. Un-crop it if you are using it with a technical camera.

Dave

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think this is not gonna happen anytime soon due to economics - initial pricing from Sony will be such that only P1 will buy them in quantities. They may even secure exclusivity for 35mm and above for 3-5 years. The reason actually the others never took the large one is also most likely the sales price from Sony and the fact that they made a decision at one point to be in crop MF which means smaller cameras, optics and higher profitability due to a more favorable sensor cost element and larger demand in the sub-10k segment.

Fuji and Hassy cameras have become quite "cheap" ... where is there cash in there for a large new chip fresh off the plant?

The Hassy back is 8k. There's really not much room in that for an expensive sensor. I am almost certain the big sensor costs more than 5k just for the sensor. That's why again it will be a P1 only party ...

We'll get a 3:2 IQ5-250 I am afraid.

3:2 is a worst case scenario, limiting in stitching and completely kills the wish for an IO5. It also means to do a simple full pano stitch on the STC you need to shoot 3 images left right and it also means that if you want to crop to 4:3 in one shot (if anything moves in your image) all lenses become longer.

Its not an advantageous format TBH; if used in repro you will also always crop except in 35mm scans.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Sorta, I think that would still require some new masks ($$$). Though I doubt they will even then - IMX811 is the replacement for the IMX411 which replaced IMX211...

And 56x36mm is a size that existed before even, with the Dalsa sensor in the Aptus II 10/Afi 10.

Its 54x36mm, unfortunately. The Aptus was the widest ever made, but this one is 2mm less wide, which is also noticeable ...

 

[drevil]

what if the IMX811 will be used in the Leica S4?

ok just kidding, i know this wont happen

 

[Paul Spinnler]

what if the IMX811 will be used in the Leica S4?

ok just kidding, i know this wont happen

I think we might see the crop variant in the S4 … for sure interesting to see how summiluxes are on it

 

[buildbot]

what if the IMX811 will be used in the Leica S4?

ok just kidding, i know this wont happen

I think we might see the crop variant in the S4 … for sure interesting to see how summiluxes are on it

Is Leica rumored to switch to Sony now? The S3 was (probably?) Tower Semiconductor. M11 some people rumor is not actually the Sony 60mp sensor everyone else uses too.
(Edit - amusingly, the M11 sensor pixel count is 9528 x 6328 in one place in the data sheet and the file size is 9536 x 6336 pixels. Dark pixels maybe? 4 rows/cols on each side?)
Edit V2. The Sony sensor writes a 61mp, 9504 x 6336 file from a 62.4mp sensor in the fp, and 9,520 x 6,328 in the A7r V. So maybe it is the Sony 60mp cropped differently.

If they do switch to Sony, they could easily use the larger sensor and crop for the S lens if that is even needed. They probably cover more than the S sensor?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

They are on the Sony platform already since the M10 ... the S3 and SL2 were on Tower.

M11, M11M and SL3 all use the IQ4 tech in its crop variant, you can see it on the Sony sensor table on the rumors site.

The S4 will also be on Sony.

WITH F2 APO OPTICS WITH NEW AF ACROSS THE RANGE.

Its going to be next-gen vs. Hasselblad and Fuji optics as they can put it on all their learnings from the SL which is 2015 and 2017 (SL APO) design know how.

The S4 is going to be an absolute bomb. Can you imagine the quality of the files if:

a) own tweaked colour science as they by now know how to handle Sony sensors
b) F2 wide open perfect Leica optics which form a bridge between new (SL APO clinical perfection) and old (S bokeh and smoothness)
c) fast AF in MF based on newest learnings from all their SL systems - I hear they designed the optics so that the AF is very fast
d) S hallmark features (extra large EVF, weather sealing, long battery life)
e) 4:3!!!! with the new sensor

If one owns an IQ4 the new 3:2 ratio might completely kill the wish for an IQ5 if there's killer systems like the new S4.

Timing wise the S4 falls into this lucky spot of coming into the right sensor cycle + Leica has never been doing as great as now.

They really might crush the MF competition if they do their homework right. The S4 could eliminate the need for a lot of systems.

I mean Hasselblad backs are now sold over the counter behind the drone section in shopping malls besides the Body Shop ... the S4 will be priced higher, but the build and feature set will be very unique and compelling.

The poll is also signalling that most people care about:

+ 4:3
+ Faster CPU and better battery (which is SoC)
+ Price

No one cares about 3:2 ... its the whole point why people have been paying extra for an IQ4!

 

[drevil]

M10-R and S3,(evenQ2?) are possibly sony, i guess the M11, Q3 and SL3 are open secrets, that its sony

what speaks against sony in the case of M10-R and S3 though, is that those are not BSI sensors and BSI has been standard with sony for a long time now

 

[Paul Spinnler]

S3 and SL2 are Tower. S3 is different from SL2 with a different bayer array to better represent skin tones (red wavelengths) and dual gain readout for higher DR.

SL2 DR is not that great.

I've spoken with Leica product people about the sensor and for efficiency reasons they've decided the fully move onto Sony as the rest of the industry did. In the previous gen they still experimented with having their own sensors, but it became clear that DR-wise its difficult to compete with Sony's know how (e.g. BSI), DR and ultimately sensor cost. Development teams are independent (e.g. SL3 and S, M, Q) so in the previous gen they still ran on two sensor platforms. Sony won.

The reason there was never an S3 discount was also because of the very high sensor costs. It was unique to the S3 and once they went through the initial stock prices for the sensor had risen so much that they end of lifed it with a final batch order for a small run + stock for replacements under guarantee.

Seeing how it all plays out, I am hopeful that Leica will indeed go for the next gen sensor in which case its going to be truly next gen as the new optics they are working on I hear are absolutely amazing.

I mean S was already 2.5 across the range. Shrink these lenses, fix AF and make them APO plus F2.

That blows away all other optics and you'll have the famed Leica build quality + proprietary large battery, EVF and weather sealing. Cannot wait tbh.

I am not sure IQ5 will sell well if it is 3:2. I stitch ALL THE TIME and 54x40 is ideal for that. 36 on the short end is limiting for stitching.

In addition 54x40 is a large format look which is pleasing for one shot fine art. To lose the aspect ratio for a more common 3:2 would eliminate the appeal greatly for me, its more important than sensor resolution which only is important in extreme cases and where uprezzing has already equalized resolution differentials.

If S4 is 4:3 then with say 200 megapixels that's going to be seriously threatening to P1.

Because if you already have a preference for a more 4:3 look and you lose it for one shot, then you might as well just take a 4:3 crop MF system camera and not lose that much by foregoing the borders left and right to get to 54mm.

54x40 is the whole point of the IQ4! You might as well stitch with a cropped sensor if they kill that benefit.

They run the risk with 3:2 of losing a key edge if there's a crop 4:3 in the market at the same time as 4:3 is a more efficient use of the crop MF mounts than 3:2 is of the full frame MF mount, so the relatively speaking the difference is not that much anymore if you crop.

 

[ThdeDude]

The 3:2 aspect ratio of this sensor is somewhat disconcerting. For whom and what is this it made?

P1 probably would have stayed with the 645 format and 4:3 aspect ratio.

 

[ThdeDude]

Not that we are overwhelmed with choices, the IQ4-150 is still offers the best image quality and there is no competitor challenging this, at least not before we see the (or:a) CVF 100C Mark II, perhaps at the end of next year.