IQ5 rumors

[georgecleansman]

The question for me is whether Phase One or Hasselblad will remain as a supplier for the photography sector in the future. Surprisingly, Hasselblad is constantly bringing new products to the market, while Phase One seems content with its industrial market. Even an amateur will be reluctant to invest in an IQ4 developed in 2018.

 

[Mexecutioner]

The question for me is whether Phase One or Hasselblad will remain as a supplier for the photography sector in the future. Surprisingly, Hasselblad is constantly bringing new products to the market, while Phase One seems content with its industrial market. Even an amateur will be reluctant to invest in an IQ4 developed in 2018.

There have been several new Phase One products introduced recently: the 150mm XT lens, the 90mm SB, with the respective extender, the XC40, so I fail to see how their photography division is stalling.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Agree with Mex – they don't look like going away ... courtesy of B2B shouldering R&D and them selling all at high profitability levels; the point is that the business is run atm at a minimal viable level while prices are structured so that all checks out. Ie the business is not loss making, but probably stalling or slowly decreaing in revenue.

They save costs where they can and just recently started a bit of IG after XC performed better than expected in China, especially. In terms of marketing - its either Paul or CI doing the marketing via one article or a small IG story and even then I am sure Paul is not getting paid a ton for making a small social media advert.

A lot will hinge on whether the IQ5 is priced fairly with trade-in and whether it WOWS people.

If it is just a resolution bump take-up might not be high enough - it needs to be an around tour de force with new internals, EVF, new sensor, etc. and then I think it will reinvogarate tech cams at least for fine art.

The other day I was thinking it would be maybe interesting if it could do cinema as this part is less affected by the AI stuff right now, but from memory I saw that the sensor refresh is not fast enough for 24 or more fps across the sensor.

 

[Phase V]

Interesting that they recently released a smaller version of their CH series camera, the iXH 100MP.
What´s the story here, do even the CH guy´s don´t have the money these day for the top end?
Btw, I also wonder why this part is considered the non plu ultra for repro work, you can not do focus
stacking with this clumsy stand and the 72mm SK lens is certainly good but i am 100% sure that my
setup with my IQ3 100, Novoflex Castel Micro and my macro lens is better.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The repro stuff from Phase is built all around the integration of their iXH cams with C1 Cultural Heritage edition - you can remote control AF, shooting, etc. which makes for a fast workflow. The problem with CH is that the market is saturated.

DT started this a decade ago, selling to US institutions and then P1 copied it, similarly like Drew, their product manager, figured it would make sense to release a "Alpa killer" back in 2019 with the XT.

P1 back then was on the cusp of being sold to the next investor and they rushed the XT, pushed the CH angle etc. to have a growth story.

Unfortunately the XT had basic design flaws and the CH market became saturated once they had covered all the big museums.

Its not like you sell to the Vatican 10 systems per year. You sell it once and then 15 years later again ...

The nature of photo hardware sales is that if you are not selling into a growing end market (ie more and more high end MFD customers or more and more ultra res needing insitutions) and are on top hit by a technological plateau (IQ4 is still the best IQ wise till today) and are hit by three fundamental shifts (pandemic, AI, wars and inflation) you are in trouble.

Let's hope the ultra high end survives, despite the rough environment.

From all changes if IQ5 boasts a stop or more of DR it could be the saving grace for P1 and digital backs. The big form factor of a P1 back should allow for them to implement circuitry to squeeze out more than others within the confines of a traditional body, especially with the ability to sell at a 25k+ price point with trade in.

DR would be the single most important upgrade besides resolution, followed by EVF, WIFI, battey system, in-camera tricks.

 

[drevil]

so, any real rumors lately?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well they are for sure working on the new Sony chip, the XT XL will come out at one point and 40 XC was just released.

The finally moved all XT lenses to tilt.

We know there's more lenses to come in their own line-up.

Looks like IQ5 is a 2025 event, let's hope early in the yaear or Spring.

I am really crossing my fingers for a WOW IQ5. The industry needs it - I mean with that Cambo, Alpa, Arca.

 

[JeffK]

In camera stitching, now that would be very cool. Plot it with an app and the software directs you to shoot and move to the next position, building the image with every shift and click. Like frame averaging, but for stitching.

 

[ThdeDude]

In camera stitching, now that would be very cool. Plot it with an app and the software directs you to shoot and move to the next position, building the image with every shift and click. Like frame averaging, but for stitching.

My wish list:

- in-camera: panorama, pixel-(sub)shifting, pixel-binning, focus-stacking, high-dynamic-range stacking (already have in the IQ4), and auto-lens cast calibration

- integrated hard disc and integrated battery (with user-replaceable batterie cells and wireless charging)

- no physical switches, all touch screen only

- useful Wi-Fi

 

[ThdeDude]

I am really crossing my fingers for a WOW IQ5. The industry needs it - I mean with that Cambo, Alpa, Arca.

Interesting to see whether we will see a Mark II CFV 100C before.

 

[cunim]

In camera stitching, now that would be very cool.

I agree it would be very cool, but probably unfair to expect. We once built systems that could stitch dozens of discrete images and I won't go into the difficulties, but they are numerous. Moving sensor packages for multishot is trivial in comparison, and you know how often even that fails. Sure you could make such a device, but I doubt you would recognise it as a camera.

External motion is easier. Programmable motorised carriers are out there for image acquisition so you could try to adapt something to a view camera. Writing the code would be tedious, though. I wonder if some of the existing motorised rail systems could be adapted without huge investment? Anyway, I'll be stunned (and grateful) if P1 come up with a decent EVF on the back. That's about as technical an advancement as I can imagine from them. Sensor packages with large-scale motion? No.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Interesting to see whether we will see a Mark II CFV 100C before.

I would expect to see an X3D before a version II CFV 100c, since the X2D was released prior. There's a rumor of a special edition X2D (I have no idea of the veracity), and if it were true, then an X3D may not arrive until late 2025 or after.

https://photorumors.com/2024/09/11/...ed-edition-kit-in-tundra-brown-leaked-online/


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[akaru]

Panorama should certainly be possible. I think the discrepancy is about it being motorized. Just allowing you to go into a pano mode, take 2-6 images, and it automatically shows you the final image. Doesn’t even have to be fully done, just a quick grid and crop to let you see the composition, even if it’s not seamless, would be useful. I can’t imagine them releasing an XTXL without this.

In fact, I’d bet that it is locked in to only this camera, with a fake excuse about needing shift data. See, I’m already blaming them for implementing the feature incorrectly, and it doesn’t even exist

 

[Doppler9000]

I would expect to see an X3D before a version II CFV 100c, since the X2D was released prior. There's a rumor of a special edition X2D (I have no idea of the veracity), and if it were true, then an X3D may not arrive until late 2025 or after.

https://photorumors.com/2024/09/11/...ed-edition-kit-in-tundra-brown-leaked-online/


Steve Hendrix/CI

It seems that this will be released next week - a few retailers jumped the gun, then deleted…

Earth Explorer Limited Edition

 

[Doppler9000]

Interesting to see whether we will see a Mark II CFV 100C before.

Monochrome or achromatic, please.

 

[Aviv1887]

I would really like to see zero latency coming back. Coming from the IQ3100 and having to back to a wake-up cable with the IQ4150, was such a disappointment 5 years ago. Working with strobes with the IQ4150 is a pain and limited. I'm surprised that nobody mentions this in the long list of wishes.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

I would really like to see zero latency coming back. Coming from the IQ3100 and having to back to a wake-up cable with the IQ4150, was such a disappointment 5 years ago. Working with strobes with the IQ4150 is a pain and limited. I'm surprised that nobody mentions this in the long list of wishes.

I'm with you, the most disappointing thing about the IQ4 for me. I went from a Credo 60 so having the e-shutter is amazing but when I do need to use Copal it is a downgrade. I figure they don't care because they want to sell X-Shutter lenses.

It'd be great to see the infinity platform is more than marketing jargon as it's turned out to be. What's the point in C1 built in etc. when they haven't really done anything with it apart from the few little extras they added some years back. How about a way to set up our shortcuts/homescreen to get to what we need easily. That's just simple UI stuff, not a big ask. Have a proper control menu in the C1 software, to control things like exposure + and frame averaging. I'd love to actually be able to see the meters in the Raw exposure metering properly — generally in bright conditions when any of the channels start to clip the meter is so small and dim it's impossible to tell, that's a simple UI fail.

I'd like better batteries that can be charged via USBc (at least a USBc charger that I can plug into the excellent compact multi-port Gan charger I already have, I don't want to carry the extra power adapter). A port/connection point on the top to add an EVF would be great (USBc data connection), EVF optional. Multi-point-liveview (pick a second area zoomed in for focus assistance, especially useful for Scheimpflug — surely possible already). And usable wireless tethering: or this one is on C1 but surely they still work together on some of this stuff, a usable professional version of C1 mobile with sessions, LCC, etc.

As long as they don't change the aspect ration from 4:3.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think, unfortunately, that this is really a sad story of private equity ruining a good business by starving the photo business of internal resources because other business areas seemed to be more profitable from an internal perspctive (C1, B2B drones, aerospatial).

1) We never got AUTO LCC - when the XT was first marketed, it was insinuated that the metadata could be used for more than just vignetting correction, e.g. internal LCC profiles
-> The excuse was that its more complex, that you need to factor in aperture, bla, bla, but I am convinced they just spun off C1 and then internal at arm's length invoicing was implemented and the result was that there was no money for fancy IQ4 features because everyone thought we better let the C1 programmers work on building a Lightroom killer - ie compatbility with Sony, Leica, Canon, Nikon foremost and "consumer wants" like pano stitching etc.

2) The IQ4 has stopped development following a bit the theme of milking a workin system and putting all cash into other business areas

They never even bothered updating the IQ4 to an IQ4+ with improved I/O (battery life, wifi, etc. are a disgrace compared to what's possible today).

I hope they really go the full nine yards and up the ante on every aspect, across the battery system, I/O, internal processing, etc.

They should also make whole early XT buyers and offer fair upgrade pricing and skip profits on this aspect.

 

[hcubell]

I think, unfortunately, that this is really a sad story of private equity ruining a good business by starving the photo business of internal resources because other business areas seemed to be more profitable from an internal perspctive (C1, B2B drones, aerospatial).

1) We never got AUTO LCC - when the XT was first marketed, it was insinuated that the metadata could be used for more than just vignetting correction, e.g. internal LCC profiles
-> The excuse was that its more complex, that you need to factor in aperture, bla, bla, but I am convinced they just spun off C1 and then internal at arm's length invoicing was implemented and the result was that there was no money for fancy IQ4 features because everyone thought we better let the C1 programmers work on building a Lightroom killer - ie compatbility with Sony, Leica, Canon, Nikon foremost and "consumer wants" like pano stitching etc.

2) The IQ4 has stopped development following a bit the theme of milking a workin system and putting all cash into other business areas

They never even bothered updating the IQ4 to an IQ4+ with improved I/O (battery life, wifi, etc. are a disgrace compared to what's possible today).

I hope they really go the full nine yards and up the ante on every aspect, across the battery system, I/O, internal processing, etc.

They should also make whole early XT buyers and offer fair upgrade pricing and skip profits on this aspect.

I wouldn't fault private equity for the decision to disinvest in the medium format digital camera system business. A PE firm, Silverfleet, acquired 60% of Phase in 2014. The XF camera system was intro in 2015 and my sense is that it has been a debacle in terms of ROI, and who knows how much of the considerable R&D was written off. Phase was sold to another PE investor in 2019, three years after Fuji and Hasselblad upended the market. Phase was left without a competitive offeringand the very high end of the market became an extremely difficult sell. After watching what happened with the XF, the idea of investing major capital to try to compete with Fuji and Hasselblad just did not make good sense. Phase management likely agreed.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I wouldn't fault private equity for the decision to disinvest in the medium format digital camera system business. A PE firm, Silverfleet, acquired 60% of Phase in 2014. The XF camera system was intro in 2015 and my sense is that it has been a debacle in terms of ROI, and who knows how much of the considerable R&D was written off. Phase was sold to another PE investor in 2019, three years after Fuji and Hasselblad upended the market. Phase was left without a competitive offeringand the very high end of the market became an extremely difficult sell. After watching what happened with the XF, the idea of investing major capital to try to compete with Fuji and Hasselblad just did not make good sense. Phase management likely agreed.

I agree that it does not make sense for Phase One to try and compete directly with Fuji and Hasselblad at the sub $10k mirrorless level. Not that they couldn't, but It would require dramatic, longstanding changes to the structure and focus of the company. I don't know the degree of investment, nor the profitability directly tied to the XF product, but in terms of sales success, I disagree 100% that the XF was any sort of "debacle". The XF Camera has been one of the most successful products Phase One ever produced.

The bummer is that they just weren't quite forward thinking (or brave/fooish?) enough to jump into mirrorless at that time (that would have been a much deeper investment), but it was early. Having a mirrorless body back then would have meant a crappy, low rez EVF, but that only would mean upgrade opportunities as they evolve the technology, which was limited with the XF hardware.


Steve Hendrix/CI