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PHASE ONE schneider LS lens question

nenes

New member
Hi all !!!

I have a question about LEAF SHUTTER LENSES

Do i have to mount another lens on the camera if i want to shoot at 1/4000 with the 80mm LS lens or the camera will use its own FOCAL PLANE shutter . FOR EXAMPLE

I AM SHOOTING WITH THE 80MM LS lens at 1/800 and i want to go to 1/3200.

Do i have to mount the non leaf shutter lens on the camera?

another example:

I AM SHOOTING WITH THE 80MM LS lens at 1/50 and i want to slow down to 3 second

Do i have to mount the non leaf shutter lens on the camera?
 

kdphotography

Active member
You can shoot happily away with both focal plane and leaf shutter with your 80mm LS. Don't get confused with flash sync speed limitations. 1/1600 is the flash sync limit for the DF and P40+, P65+ and IQ series MFDB with LS lenses.

You can set the CF on the 645DF body to automatically switch between the Focal and LS, LS only, or Focal only.

The only problem for you is that you can't just stop at one Schneider LS lens. You know, if you give a mouse a cookie...

:D

Sitting here waiting for that 240mm LS....
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
You can set the CF on the 645DF body to automatically switch between the Focal and LS, LS only, or Focal only.
+1

You decide what happens in those scenarios.

Two relevant custom functions:
CF#17 Shutter TV, AV & P [Sh_P]
When using P, Av or Tv mode and the leaf shutter lens is attached but you force usage of the focal plane shutter or vice versa.
CF#18 Shutter in M & X [Sh]
This function can be used, when using M & X mode and the leaf shutter lens is attached but you would like to use the focal plane shutter or vice versa.

Three possible settings for each of those functions:
LS Only - body only allows shutter speeds that the LS can handle
FP only - full shutter speed range, but no fast flash sync
Mixed - uses LS when possible, FP when it needs faster/slower speeds than the LS can handle

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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johnnygoesdigital

New member
Having two shutters seems like a great idea, but can you completely isolate the focal plane shutter from the LS sequence? As an example, if I want to do a shot from a helicopter and use LS only for vibration free images, the focal plane still has to get out of the way, right? I spoke to an aerial photographer who said that they could not get the FP to be completely off line in the shot sequence. Is it possible to have just the LS do the exposure?
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
You know, if you give a mouse a cookie...

he is gonna want a little cheese too.:D
Having two shutters seems like a great idea, but can you completely isolate the focal plane shutter from the LS sequence? As an example, if I want to do a shot from a helicopter and use LS only for vibration free images, the focal plane still has to get out of the way, right? I spoke to an aerial photographer who said that they could not get the FP to be completely off line in the shot sequence. Is it possible to have just the LS do the exposure?
In a word - no! Though in a conversation with a Phase engineer a few months ago he agreed that a variable delay between the FP shutter and the LS shutter might be possible one day. That wouldn't be helpful for fast shooting of course, but it would be very useful for tripod work to have the FP shutter open with MLU, then have the LS open after vibrations have dissipated.

Bill
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
At least Phase is considering this. Perhaps a firmware update with a CF setting would do it. Having both shutters to use for different applications really would be an ideal camera.
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
I'm curious about a different sequence as well, this seemed like a good thread to ask since it's a related question.

I would like to know how the FP shutter functions when using a LS lens and using mirror-up, with or without self timer. Does the FP shutter go ahead and open all the way when the mirror goes up or does it still fire slightly before the the LS fires?
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
If I recall correctly the sequence is still:

Shutter press, MUP, shutter press or time delay, focal plane shutter release, leaf shutter release.

There was a thread a while back about this. I don't recall seeing any firmware update that changed this sequence which obviously would be so much better if the two shutters didn't both fire.
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
If I recall correctly the sequence is still:

Shutter press, MUP, shutter press or time delay, focal plane shutter release, leaf shutter release.

There was a thread a while back about this. I don't recall seeing any firmware update that changed this sequence which obviously would be so much better if the two shutters didn't both fire.
No kidding. Seems the advantage of the leaf shutter is then limited to strobe speed, nothing to help with image quality without some type of delay between the focal plane shutter opening and the leaf shutter firing.
This means the 240LS may not have much appeal ... it may prove as challenging to get a sharp capture just like the 300 is now with the focal plane shutter.
 

Tim Ernst

New member
I just completed a shot-glass test using both leaf shutter and non-leaf shutter lenses to test for camera vibrations during exposure. I was surprised to find out soon after the LS lenses started shipping that the focal shutter does not open when the mirror is locked up, but have not tested to see what the difference was until now.

Boyd Norton taught me this shot-glass trick more than 30 years ago to test camera vibration (back then it was to show the advantage of using mirror lock up). We drank a lot of Bombay gin back in those days, and so I keep the tradition alive and that is what I use. Latest DF body & firmware, solid connection to a cube head, on a big gitzo tripod, ten-second delay after mirror lock-up - the gin was completely settled and calm (and I was sober, at least at the beginning of the testing). I used the three original Phase LS lenses, plus several Mamiya and Phase non-LS lenses. The shot glass of gin was placed on the hot shoe, and I focussed my eyes on the reflection of a small ceiling lamp, but it was really easy to see the surface of the gin jump when the shutter opened (likewise when it settled down).

I could see no difference in the amount or duration of the camera vibration during the exposures between any of the lenses - it was about 7/10ths of second long. There was no advantage to the LS lenses as far as camera vibration due to the big shutter slap goes. It would appear that if the focal plane shutter does open before the leaf shutter as folks have noted here, it would only be a micro second and does not make any difference.

It seems to me that we won't see an advantage to the LS lenses for less camera vibrations until the new Phase body comes out - and only then if they fix this defect in the system and allow the focal shutter to open when the mirror does - I bet the leaf shutter vibration by itself would be nil. I'm not knocking image quality of these lenses, only the fact that they don't help the vibration situation any as one might think with a leaf shutter lens.

The solution to this issue for me is to simply use long exposures (8-10 seconds or longer). That way the percentage of time the camera is vibrating during the exposure is minimal. If you do a one-second exposure the vibration would last 70% of the time. (Of course if you use fast speeds and/or flash all of this is mute anyway.)
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
I guess my only comment is whether this a limitation of the camera or something that can be handled with firmware. The mirror and shutter can certainly both open ... happens whenever you take the back off the camera.

But the 240LS is off my list now, as well as the 75-150LS.
 

Tim Ernst

New member
Yup, you would have thought that command was already built in as you say. Phase hasn't really put anything into the Mamiya body so I can only guess they are waiting to do this with their own body, if that ever happens. Or perhaps we landscape shooters are just too small a group for them to worry about, but it really seems like a pretty basic function, but it really does hamper long lens use.
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
If I recall my conversation with the Phase engineer correctly (it was over a wine-enhanced dinner) there is something like a 0.7 second delay built in from the FP shutter opening and the LF shutter firing and I got the distinct impression that this was a deliberate choice made for the benefit for those shooting in the studio - fashion etc. and with flash.

The point is that it was a choice that Phase made; that implies the choice could be changed. I strongly suggested that the ideal would be a delay that was programmable by the user - and I was not discouraged from believing this might happen in the future. (He and I had been shooting landscapes at the time so he knew exactly what I wanted.)

Bill
 

Tim Ernst

New member
No way it could be .7 second delay - perhaps .07, or .007. It would be great if they could correct this defect via firmware, although I would be really surprised if they made it available in the Mamiya body - if they do it at all I would bet a bottle of gin to bottle of fine wine it won't happen until they come out with a Phase body...
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Ditto the other strange setting that links AE bracket step to EV step. I'm sure that there's a reason for these being the same (and remaining so even with the DF) - I assume the code was written for film shooting before HDR bracket sets were even a twinkle in the AFD's eye ...

I.e. if you want to be able to leverage -2EV, 0EV, +2EV auto bracket but retain +/-1/3EV exposure compensation in AE mode then you're out of luck in the same custom setting set. Not the end of the world because there are manual workarounds I suppose.
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
No way it could be .7 second delay - perhaps .07, or .007. It would be great if they could correct this defect via firmware, although I would be really surprised if they made it available in the Mamiya body - if they do it at all I would bet a bottle of gin to bottle of fine wine it won't happen until they come out with a Phase body...
You're probably right. I remember the Shiraz better than the figures.....
Bill
 
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