What the Phase...?

[Paul Spinnler]

The fact that Phase One reduces the warranty to 1 year is also a signal that they are thinking of a time when the photo unit could be closed.

Parts will be available as the CH business will still use these large sensors, but this to me is not exactly encouraging.

Maybe the community should ask some questions to P1 regarding the commitment to photography ... would be cool to get some feedback from Drew.

At this stage the founder Hakonsson probably just wants to sell the company and get out so all focus in on driving the drone business up.

I guess also here time is of the essence because let's be real – DJI can do this drone stuff too.

 

[vjbelle]

I can only say that I'm glad I'm out. Price up, warranty down = they don't want to sell this back anymore which to me means there may never be much of any future for the IQ series backs in the consumer division. Phase was a wonderful trip - I've owned them for more than 18 years but the MP gap, features, ease of use and incredible cost difference of the competition has taken its toll.

Victor B.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think they do some big management mistakes. It is important to foster the community.

IQ4 is still the best system and the quality of the files and microcontrast with Rodie HR lenses is unparalleld. But if people lose trust in the brand and platform it can quickly lead to a "bank run" type of scenario where people sell off gear because they don't believe in the future.

And no communication at all is also stupid if the clientele is sophisticated.

They need to invest a TINY BIT to build trust.

+ XT XL
+ XT mini
+ New firmware with auto LCC via metadata –> costs money as C1 will invoice P1 photo -> this was "promised" with the XT launch
+ Dont' f*** with the warranty – destroys trust (except if you plan to shut down the business at one point)

CEO just wants to sell the business and trims it to max profitabiity in the ST, but it will also inflict serious damage in the user base if they for a quick back run the squeeze strategy.

It is too tightly run this way and not sustainable.

Offer a factory SoC upgrade for IQ4 backs – better battery life and more ooomph in the system to do in-camera stuff and better WiFi. Would pay 10k for this and this should throw the product line a good life-line.

I also thought about the drone business. I mean DJI can copy that in the long-term. Maybe this is also a key rationale to buy Hassy to get the know-how for the industrial business side to build inspection solutions.

It is incredibly short-sighted to starve out the photo side with a 0-info-comms strategy and 0-updates policy in place.

Hope they get their act together and re-think this. Could be a textbook example of how to f*** up a leading market position in a lucrative niche.

Margins on backs are high – they should foster this business.

 

[ThdeDude]

The fact that Phase One reduces the warranty to 1 year is also a signal that they are thinking of a time when the photo unit could be closed.
Parts will be available as the CH business will still use these large sensors, but this to me is not exactly encouraging.

I think much depends when Sony can deliver a "global shutter" or at least fast enough readout time to avoid "rolling shutter" effects for most scenarios. If, then P1 could add features like in-camera panorama, focus-stacking, pixel shifting, and high-dynamic-range stacking (know IQ4 already has some of those features).

If no working large sensors anymore in, say, thirty years, still could use my Techno and Digaron lenses with rollfilm!

P.S. With large sensor I meant 645 format size sensor. I believe that we will never see a 6x6 or 6x7 sensor camera. There are no cameras and lenses in production anymore, this format never made the successful switch into digital, and now I don't think there is a demand for such cameras. As discussed here, even the digital 645 format is shaky. Maybe 44x33mm is the new medium format!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think much depends when Sony can deliver a "global shutter" or at least fast enough readout time to avoid "rolling shutter" effects for most scenarios. If then P1 could additional features like add in-camera panorama, focus-stacking, pixel shifting, and high-dynamic-range stacking (know IQ4 already has some of those features).

If no working large sensors anymore in, say, thirty years, still could use my Techno and Digaron lenses with rollfilm!

Nobody in industry needs a 54x40 GS sensor so it won't be developed. Current GS tech is not fit for purpose. I was told by people in the know that DR is significantly reduced with 2 stops or more less DR than the photo stuff. It is also not a real GS, just a very fast read out on a smaller sensor size. I think 44x33.

There won't be a bigger sensor because B2B can just stitch multiple imaging arrays into a bigger system. Ie if you want more res take 4 sensors and stitch them and use for lenses or one big one.

 

[Ray Harrison]

Interestingly, in a couple of weeks, I’m going to be taking an “advanced capture one training” session in Denver hosted at the Phase US headquarters presence here. I’m going less for the C1 - though I’m sure I can always learn more - but more because Phase folks will be there participating and showing off things like the XT. I’ll try and put some of the questions raised here to them and “read between the lines” on answers they give me (and I’m sure others).

Addendum: Another interesting thing is that Phase is sponsoring a 5 day workshop here in the US in April down in the Monument Valley area. Phase reps will be there too. They’ll be again showing off things like the XT and letting people use them.

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

I must say, reading this thread, that it sounds like eulogy for Phase One. The evidence for their possible denouement seems very shaky to me. But I agree some communication from Denmark would be welcome.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

You don't reduce warranty to 1y if you seriously believe in a long-term perspective ... that's what got me thinking today. It gives the buyer of the business the optionality to kill the business quickly as per consumer laws you need to keep parts, warranty agreements, etc. in place.

Where's Hassy's new digital back? Also weird that it is not out yet ... and it is not unprecedented that previously very successful back manufacturers cease to exist. Leaf died, Mamiya's backs were eliminated, etc. There's no law that says an IQ5 will come.

Remember, P1 is prepping for a PE exit to the next buyer so everyone (CEO and investors) can cash out. So having a declining business with off-balance sheet warranty liabilities in place is a drag to the valuation.

And sorry - auto LCC should be a non-issue for them. They just don't want to fork over 500-1mk dev. costs to C1 to get it done properly. You could store LCCs in there for your favorite lenses and aperture combinations and immediately apply them. And edit the metadata via a nifty GUI overlay. The GUI could also have a apply favorite LCC button while shooting beside the round shutter button or so.

Most of the time one shoots in similar shift positions and in similar f stops ...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Interestingly, in a couple of weeks, I’m going to be taking an “advanced capture one training” session in Denver hosted at the Phase US headquarters presence here. I’m going less for the C1 - though I’m sure I can always learn more - but more because Phase folks will be there participating and showing off things like the XT. I’ll try and put some of the questions raised here to them and “read between the lines” on answers they give me (and I’m sure others).

Addendum: Another interesting thing is that Phase is sponsoring a 5 day workshop here in the US in April down in the Monument Valley area. Phase reps will be there too. They’ll be again showing off things like the XT and letting people use them.

Pls. grill them. Where's the XT mini / XL, why warranty 1y, what is the perspective long-term. Where's the IQ5. Where's the next firmware update ...

 

[Phase V]

I guess there is some clarification needed, the reduction in warranty is, as i understood it,
only for traded in backs (bring your IQ3xxx and get a IQ4150) and not if you purchase a new one,
Nevertheless this is just another devaluation of your existing back and really annoying.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I guess there is some clarification needed, the reduction in warranty is, as i understood it,
only for traded in backs (bring your IQ3xxx and get a IQ4150) and not if you purchase a new one,
Nevertheless this is just another devaluation of your existing back and really annoying.

Ah this is a BIG difference. If they still offer 5y on new backs that's encouraging. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Paul2660]

Has anyone in the US confirmed if the warranty on a new back has dropped to only 1 year for a new purchase in the IS? Instead of the 5 year value add that was offered at start of IQ4?
Paul

 

[JeffK]

If no working large sensors anymore in, say, thirty years, still could use my Techno and Digaron lenses with rollfilm!

this is a key point. The backs won't last forever, but a good technical camera and quality lenses will last our lifetime. The sensor unit for us will change over time. Eventually we may all have a 200mp 33x44 sensor from Fuji/Sony attached to our Cambo Actus/XT/WRS or ALPA12...

The fun of photography isn't at risk. Smart vendors like Cambo will be quick to adapt and provide adapter solutions to connect any camera to their Actus system.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well, a tech cam manufacturer could go out of business if they don't adapt. Arca and Cambo are in a strategically better position in a dynamic marketplace with changing camera preferences as they own their production facilities and are able to quickly make new products. They also have in-house know-how, ie people who understand everything about machining and lenses ...

This said, I don't understand why Phase doesn't just release the rumored XT mini (ie like the Alpa TC) and the XT XL (ie 18-20mm shift left / right). They went all-in into the tech cam market with a fancy system, but then stopped before it was complete. Lenses were available only slowly, tilt is misconstrued and there's no choice in terms of bodies. Auto LCC is nowhere to be seen. This would be THE kick-ass feature of the phase system.

Both contract and outsourced manufacturing have their advantages, but you can see clearly in the case of Phase it led to a lack of innovation in the XT platform.

I mean ... the tilt in the XT40 HR is flawed design – you cannot tilt and use it in portrait, because the base of the XT rotates the whole assembly when rotating the back. It means you only have tilt in landscape mode and not in portrait orientation. Still surprised Drew let this one pass ... was it lack of time, resources or understanding? Who knows. It just feels half-baked and it may have to do with the contract manufacturing setup as each iteration costs ... like everytime a lawyer works on changing a sentence for you it is billed

 

[Paul2660]

How many P1 backs are purchased new outright bs via the upgrade path. To ask another way how many folks on this forum purchased a IQ4 new without upgrading? Last time I checked new price was over 50K for the IQ4? Vs around 26K for upgrade from IQ3.
Paul

 

[Ray Harrison]

How many P1 backs are purchased new outright bs via the upgrade path. To ask another way how many folks on this forum purchased a IQ4 new without upgrading? Last time I checked new price was over 50K for the IQ4? Vs around 26K for upgrade from IQ3.
Paul

I definitely went the upgrade route. If I’m reading Phase V’s statement right, it sounds like the upgrade route no longer gets you a 5 year warranty on a new IQ4 for which you’ve traded in your IQ3 (say). That’s concerning to say the least, if true. The challenge is that I haven’t heard a word from Phase themselves or even through their sales channels - someone like Capture Integration. So I’ll be asking in person in a couple of weeks.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I definitely went the upgrade route. If I’m reading Phase V’s statement right, it sounds like the upgrade route no longer gets you a 5 year warranty on a new IQ4 for which you’ve traded in your IQ3 (say). That’s concerning to say the least, if true. The challenge is that I haven’t heard a word from Phase themselves or even through their sales channels - someone like Capture Integration. So I’ll be asking in person in a couple of weeks.

Best case it is a cost saving measure to get a bit cash back from "upgrade people" who pay less for a new back. Also might have to do with the fact that the trade up backs are not worth that much anymore. A reduction by 3k of the IQ3 is a reflection of its low market value.

Worst case it means they want to be able to quickly wind down the business at one point without having endless warranty stuff dangling around.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

To clarify. One year warranty on IQ4 upgrades. Five year warranty on IQ4 new purchase.

I don't like this either, although they did a similar thing with IQ3 100 and other digital back models at some point. Not defending it, but it isn't entirely without precedent.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[ThdeDude]

A reduction by 3k of the IQ3 is a reflection of its low market value.

Since weeks there is one IQ3 with asking price of $8K on this website. No takers yet.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Since weeks there is one IQ3 with asking price of $8K on this website. No takers yet.

Fuji effectively killed P1’s business below 150 … the idea, what I was told, was always to underscore the “value add” of P1, ie frame averaging, higher file IQ etc.; still, without firmware upgrades anymore it is a bit difficult to argue for 40k difference for 50 mpx