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Where is the X1D ????

PeterA

Well-known member
Peter all do respect your not trying to feed your family with photography and your have no rush to get any camera or any gear like that. Your priorities are different . Your also missed the big picture here . It's these OEMs that simply do not communicate, market and deliver products based on a reasonable time from announcement . Many pre-orders have hard dates for shipping. Besides that I'm a Pro I have jumped on new gear on day one, why because I think it will help me. Tried and trusted is a passing fancy in this business. Reviews suck from most of these reviewers now days as there selling click bait. I don't trust anyone when it comes to a review. I put my hard earned freaking money out there and bust my *** to to survive in a very declining profession. If you consider me a cry baby than the hell with you or anyone else that thinks that. I'm running a business this is about putting money on my table. I'm 100 percent vested in this and so are many shooters they need to plan, divest what they have, save for what they want and try to compete in this weekend warrior low ball business. I'm honestly sick of OEMs holding us ****ing hostage. I'll buy what's available without the BS because I need to shoot. I'm not a fanboy of anything never mind a brand label luxury product. I need tools to work. I'm sorry your comment really pisses me off. This is about getting my job done. This is about a Professional brand that's not acting in favor of Professional Photographers. I can't plan for this, I'm out...

This is exactly why I left Leica behind. It's this attitude I can wait. I wait for nothing.

Peter it's about this does not matter talk, it does matter too many.
Guy - Im not here to tell you how to run your business mate. Nor am I here to piss anyone off - however...

I am in business myself a rather large entgerprise covering multiple offices in multiple countries - so I know something about 'business'.
My business relies heavily on two things - very smart people and very high end cutting edge technology.
People are always selling me the latest and greatest internet tech/trading tech - and I resist buying without trying - because I found out the hard way and to my cost - that most often the newest stuff is not quite ready for industrial heavy duty use.

You are correct that I dont make my living out of photography and yes my priorities are different - however, I learned the hard way even with photography equipment - that rarely do manufacturer's marketing claims line up with the reality of the actual product in hand.

I am surprised that you would be willing to jump to a totally new system - without proper testing. I agree most commentary on internet and forums is worthless.

As for Leica - I'm invested heavily in fabulous M lenses which never let me down - so I put up with M cameras and their quirks and am now a very happy user of an SL - which I can use my M lenses and Zeiss lenses and SL lenses on - a pity it is 'just' 25 megapixels but as a camera system very easy to use and get the most out of high quality glass - just like your Sony A7R11!!!

As for the XID if it is better than the Fuji OR the lower prices (that will come from all other manufacturers) THEN I might add it to my arsenal - I can wait - and so can you -:)


the
All the best
Pete
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Oh I'm not buying it, if I was I would rent it first. Just to big a risk. More my point is a lot of people are and not having hard dates is very hard to plan with available money, divesting their gear and that whole buying and selling process. I can't justify it myself because it's still a limited system for the work I do. Had the same troubles with Phase and Leica. They just don't cover me enough. I was speaking more in general industry terms. Now as far as myself doing a 360 on buying another system, that I have done a couple times but I did my homework. Here it's still hard to figure out what's in board until final firmware. Honestly that's ridiculous this far in the game plan.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Some reflections…

Hi,

At the time the X1D was announced I felt it was a bit premature. The camera didn't have the final specifications yet.

That may actually have been a good thing, they got a lot of customer feedback. But it means a long wait for the finished product.

It seems that the finished firmware will support multiple AF points and movable magnified live view. It may even be that they get AF-working with the H-lens adapter.

It is quite reasonable that development takes a bit longer than expected. For instance, live view requires the sensor to be scanned all the time and all those bits coming off the sensor need to be processed. That mean the camera uses a lot of energy, so it needs a good thermal design to keep the sensor cool. That may also mean that the camera works well in room temperature but may shutdown in hot conditions.

Reducing power consumption may be essential, but it may take some time. You can put in some extra hardware to optimise processing.

It is of course a great pity that it is dragging over time. I can feel some sympathy for buyers waiting for it, especially as I was in a similar situation back in 2015.

I was waiting for the Sony A7rII for two years. It had pretty much the feature set I wanted. Finally it was announced early June in 2015. One of the main reasons I wanted it was because it would allow tilt and shift with Canon lenses.

So I ordered a Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII, the Metabones IV adapter an preordered the camera.

So I had a lens but no camera to test it on. Holiday trips to Luxemburg and Gotland passed but no camera. Finally I got my A7rII a couple of days before going to Alsace. It worked well on the trip, but the Metabones IV adapter started failing during the trip. While still on the trip I ordered Metabones IV-T so I had one working for the next trip.

So I missed quite a few shooting opportunities in Luxemburg, Gotland and also Alsace. Metabones IV worked on the following trip into the Dolomites.

You should never depend on a single piece of hardware. Nowdays I carry something like:

  • A Sony A7rII as my main camera
  • A Sony A7II for backup
  • A Canon 16-35/4L as a wide angle zoom
  • A Canon 24-105/4L as my normal zoom lens
  • A Metabones IV-T adapter to mount Canon lenses on the A7xxx
  • A Vello EF to FE adapter as a backup for the Metabones
  • A Sony 70-400/4-5.6G as telephoto zoom lens
  • A Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII for T&S work
  • A HCam Master TSII for T&S work
  • A Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5 zoom for tilt work
  • A Sigma 10/35 fisheye

So if any part breaks down I can still shoot on, with at least the 24-135 range covered.

What has this to do with the X1D? Nothing. But, for anything serious you would need backup gear.

Best regards
Erik
 

D&A

Well-known member
I can certainly understand a company announcing specifications for a pre announced camera and improving features and functionality on the camera along the way until which time final production starts and its on its way to end users. I also understand after it's released, many companies work on resolving and addressing noted issues and possibly improve camera functionality/performance through firmware updates.

What perplexed me though was the sending out of demo units to dealers, implying final production units were soon to be released and that those having access to these close to production demo units, could get a good idea if the camera was what they expected. For those not having logistical access, they could rely on initial reports from those that did. Yet it appeared many of these demo units had all sorts of different firmware revisions and some variance of features (some important and expected features even non existent in some demo units) and had noted shortcomings compared to what appears to be incorporated on production units that were just around the corner. Questions as to whether some of these features would even exist in production units were prevalent.

For example, selectable autofocus points, power up times of up to 15 seconds or longer and very short battery life, non existent magnification of focus point are just some of these. Why then release demo such units that received concerns from some, so close to releasing production units and run the risk of all sorts of speculations about possible shortcomings of the camera. I could understand showing pre production units at trade shows, but not these kinds of premature functioning units at dealers available for rental. Maybe its just me not fully understanding and I am simply asking out of curiosity since my initial impressions while trying out the demo was less than enthusiastic due to some of the concerns I outlined above.

One thing for certain. The changes made from demo units to production units is quite significant from what I can determine and is a very welcome sign of things to come for this potentially exciting and excellent system.

David (D&A)
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Love how they blamed Sony but one interview awhile back they said they had plenty of sensors. When in doubt blame someone else. Lol
 

MrSmith

Member
I don't trust anyone when it comes to a review
me neither, unless its an MTF chart dealing with hard facts or i look at the user and how close their needs are to mine. if they are a you-tuber with a need for more click-throughs their opinion isn’t worth much.
most reviewers don’t have the fear factor of reliability,durability,usability and deliverability (of the files to clients) that govern a purchasing decision.
the recent threads on here about Phase and Leica issues would see my money go elsewhere, probably to HBlad but then that would be by walking into a dealer, hiring the kit with a view to purchase after reading reviews by those who’s opinions i trust.

selling your kit for a pre-order ‘sometime in the future’ is not a sound business decision. though i will say that H/blad tend not to release stuff that isn’t sorted and ready for pro use, something Phase should take note of.
 
X1D firmware 1.14.2 is officially out, a sign of soon availability of the camera within days. I am on the third spot on the list in my country....;)

new features:
• Selectable AF point
• Auto White Balance
• Exposure simulation on LCD/EVF
• B and T-modes
• Lens firmware can be updated through the camera
• Improved stability when the battery is low
• Language updates
• Bug fixes
 

ejpeiker

Member
the recent threads on here about Phase and Leica issues would see my money go elsewhere,
Sounds like you are falling victim to the Internet Amplification Effect. One or two unhappy customers get 99% of the coverage while the rest that don't have issues just happily go on shooting with their gear. People that aren't experiencing problems aren't going to start a thread that goes something like "My Phase One XF or my Leica S2 is great and just keeps on clicking..." but somebody who is having a problem is likely to post something to either get help or to get their frustration off their chest. The internet amplifies issues drastically due to this.
 

MrSmith

Member
Sounds like you are falling victim to the Internet Amplification Effect. One or two unhappy customers get 99% of the coverage while the rest that don't have issues just happily go on shooting with their gear. People that aren't experiencing problems aren't going to start a thread that goes something like "My Phase One XF or my Leica S2 is great and just keeps on clicking..." but somebody who is having a problem is likely to post something to either get help or to get their frustration off their chest. The internet amplifies issues drastically due to this.
well an assistant i use had a few nightmares with the XF and then i experienced issues myself on a shoot. these experiences have greater weight than anything read on the internet. prism latch, battery door or focus issues notwithstanding
as for Leica well i’m never going to be a customer however reliable they are but those long delays without kit would be unworkable. they may be a small percentage but when you see a pattern forming of people with similar issues its obviously not an outlier but a design/manufacture issue that happens more than it should.
 

ejpeiker

Member
well an assistant i use had a few nightmares with the XF and then i experienced issues myself on a shoot. these experiences have greater weight than anything read on the internet. prism latch, battery door or focus issues notwithstanding
as for Leica well i’m never going to be a customer however reliable they are but those long delays without kit would be unworkable. they may be a small percentage but when you see a pattern forming of people with similar issues its obviously not an outlier but a design/manufacture issue that happens more than it should.
That's personal experience not stories you read in these threads - agree that has much more weight ;)
 

Satrycon

Well-known member
more pics showing up on the Flickr group https://www.flickr.com/groups/3021209@N23/pool/with/30706437534/


X1D firmware 1.14.2 is officially out, a sign of soon availability of the camera within days. I am on the third spot on the list in my country....;)

new features:
• Selectable AF point
• Auto White Balance
• Exposure simulation on LCD/EVF
• B and T-modes
• Lens firmware can be updated through the camera
• Improved stability when the battery is low
• Language updates
• Bug fixes
 

D&A

Well-known member
Looking at those side to side comparitive pictures on flickr, of images of the Hasselblad X1D next to the Leica SL, and their unmistakable similarities in regards to looks, size, shape, profile and even industrial design, one could envision with some retooling, the SL could eventually evolve into a cropped sensor MFD mirrorless body akin to the X1D and become an eventual competitor in that market.

Dave (D&A)
 
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iiiNelson

Well-known member
Maybe it's just me but the X1D shots seem to be lacking something in character that the H series camera and lens combos seem to have. I hope the rendering and files are pliable for different looks.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Sounds like you are falling victim to the Internet Amplification Effect. One or two unhappy customers get 99% of the coverage while the rest that don't have issues just happily go on shooting with their gear. People that aren't experiencing problems aren't going to start a thread that goes something like "My Phase One XF or my Leica S2 is great and just keeps on clicking..." but somebody who is having a problem is likely to post something to either get help or to get their frustration off their chest. The internet amplifies issues drastically due to this.
Brand/Product reliability is even more difficult to evaluate than you've described.

Even with very unreliable products the majority of users have few or no problems. Among any reputable brand it's the overwhelming majority. So we're inherently dealing with low-probability events when we talk about the failure/trouble rate of any manufacturer. Human intuition does not do well with gut-feeling-evaluating low probability events. And the internet, for a couple reasons, makes it harder, not easier.

On a forum, if all else is equal, the brand that is most frequently owned will have proportionally more complaints aired. If one brand has, for example, 80% of the total users on a forum, and that brand is twice as reliable, it would still have twice as many problems reported. There is even a bit of a feedback loop; generally speaking more reliable equipment tends to rise in market share over time. So it can often be that the most-reliable brand has highest number of problems reported.

That's can be true for cameras, TVs, video game consoles, bikes, mowers or anything else you can buy. Of course the opposite can also be true (that the one with the most complaints is the brand with the most unreliable product). The point is you can't tell all that much from the total number of problem-reports.

As one example, it would be very hard to find any complaints about Megavision digital backs on this forum, but the number of Megavision users here is probably a handful or fewer. I am not implying anything about the quality and reliability of Megavision backs in saying this; to the contrary my point is that you cannot imply anything (positive or negative) about Megavision reliability/quality given how few owners there on the forum.

There are three places I think you can derive a very good sense of probability-of-issues.
1) Dealers with years of experience
2) The manufacturers themselves, all of whom (that I've worked with) keep detailed logs of repair and failure rates
3) Rental houses and digital techs who have years of broad experience

With (1) you need to be aware of bias (for example I feel I have a very good real world feel for failure rates among major medium format brands, but I know I'm biased even if I'm actively trying to fight that bias to provide our customers fact-based advice).

With (2) you're unlikely to ever see these numbers in public. Even if your rates of repairs are an industry low it's generally felt to be poor "messaging" to focus people's attention on a statement like "Only 3 in 100 of our product require repair during the first three years". It would be like a hospital messaging "At our hospital you're moderately less likely to die from a mistake we make". While this kind of blunt-truth style of presentation/marketing fits my personality, there are very few corporate advertising departments that would agree.

That leaves (3) which I think is your best bet. A well experienced high end rental house or digital tech who deals with multiple brands over many years will have experience with many copies of every component (multiple samples of any given lens, back, body, many version releases of software) and also has the expertise to know the difference between user error and equipment failure and the mentality of doing reasonable things to make things work. Their experience will tell you that no brand is without some rate of failure/problems but there is significant variation among the brands on what that rate is. Talk to a few for even better results.

But of course, with anything that is probabilistic the results for any given person are only likely to follow the overall trend, and there can be very high variation within the population of total users. I once had a customer who had three separate and unrelated components fail the same week, all of which (from broad experience) I would normally tell someone were very high in reliability; that should be a one in a thousand kind of chance, but if you have a couple thousand customers it would be stranger if that didn't happen to at least one customer than if it did. Trust me when I say that it doesn't matter much to someone who has several major issues, whether they are a 1/100 or 1/10,000 situation; they are (rightfully and understandably) more concerned with the numerator (the "1" that was affected) than the denominator (all the people who didn't have problems.

From that point of view, how the dealer (and manufacturer when relevant) responds to the "1" is just as important, or maybe even more important, than the exact probability of a problem happening. For example, I'd rather have a 5% chance of a problem that was quickly and painlessly resolved than a 1% chance of a similar problem that took days of hassle and lots of mental energy and stress. I'd rather be a blade of grass on a course where a dozen light whiffle balls were being hit than a blade of grass where a single golf ball was being hit.

Even worse, many products have a significant break-in curve. That is, the first few days, weeks, or months it is available it has far far more problems than after that period. For example if you judged iOS versions based on the first X.0 release you'd say Apple puts out horridly unreliable phone operating systems. If you judged iOS based on the release available two months after the initial launch you'd say that, of course there are a few bugs for some users, but generally Apple phone operating systems are rock solid.

Excuse all the golf analogies. I'm really not much of a golfer. But it's so cold and harshly windy here in NYC that I'm dreaming of some place with sun and a gentle breeze.
 
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