Z7/Z7ii ISO noise performance

[Jack]

The Z7's tend to get relegated into the "poor at higher ISO" camp of cameras. For my uses, I remain fairly impressed with them at up to 25,000. I thought I'd share this shot for two reasons. First is it's taken at ISO 6400, but has a 2/3rds exposure bump, light saturation and clarity bumps and a 1-stop vignette added, all of which increase the base noise. Second is it's been processed 100% in C1 including C1's NR, except for final web sizing to 2048 px which I still prefer to do in PS. This image was shot indoors in a room with only North-window lighting about 20 feet away, so it was pretty dim light. It is hand-held with the 70-200S at 125th/f8 and the lens also has my screw-in 77mm 2-element +1.8 close-up diopter attached for this closer focus -- obviously its VR is pretty good. It is the un-cropped full-frame image. C&C welcome.

 

[pegelli]

I agree Jack, in general there's too much noise about high iso noise, first if you look at the DXO data the Z7 is noise wise ~1/3 stop behind the Sony A7Riii / Panasonic DC S1R (the kings of high iso noise for sensors above 40 MP) and ~1/6 stop behind the Canon R5. I think these differences are hardly significant in normal shooting conditions.
Secondly as you mention denoise technology has also greatly improved making these small differences irrelevant.
If you look at high iso noise when digital took off in the mid 2000'nds sensor technology has so much improved that we really can't complain I think.

DXO doesn't have the Z7ii data yet, since you have both cameras do you think they're equal in this respect or do you notice any differences?

 

[Jack]

DXO doesn't have the Z7ii data yet, since you have both cameras do you think they're equal in this respect or do you notice any differences?

My visual take is they're identical -- meaning I haven't noticed any significant difference, but I have not scientifically measured noise in either camera.

 

[Shashin]

Noise? I don't hear anything...

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

The noise thing is totally overblown. To start with, current cameras show very little noise when used at "reasonable" ISO's. Secondly, noise reduction software, including the one in ACR, is now so good that I currently re-process photos that were unusable for commercial purposes when I took them 10+ years ago, but can now be sold and used.

If I can live with the limited DR, a couple of $200 Nikon D200 bodies would probably be all I need to re-start my photography business. And since current marketing professionals were still in kindergarten when that camera was popular, they won't know about it and probably think that it's some exotic, new Nikon model...

 

[pegelli]

Noise? I don't hear anything...

A good expression about this I've seen is
"I'm noise blind, and I'm also deaf to noise about noise"

 

[ptomsu]

I am comfortably using the Nikon Z7 up till ISO 12800 and usually am not turned off by the noise I get. If I want absolutely clear images without any signs of noise this works for me till ISO 6400.

Coming from m43 I find the Z7 sensor to be lightyears ahead - hence I am a happy camper.

What I rather would like to see is a new AF system like in the Sony A1 that will hopefully come with the Z9 and even more interesting for me in the Z8 - as I prefer a slightly smaller camera body.

 

[Jan Brittenson]

It’s worth noting too that ACR has possibly the worst noise filtering of any raw converter!

 

[Jack]

Jan, agreed based on past experience, but admittedly I have not used ACR/LR in years. C1 also seems to extract a lot more detail.

 

[SrMphoto]

I have not read anywhere that Z 7 is poor at higher ISO. It has at least the same high ISO property as all other modern FF cameras. Only the Leica M10 Monochrom (lack of Bayer CFA) is significantly better at higher ISO.

FWIW, it is not the high ISO that causes noise but low exposure.

 

[ptomsu]

Jan, agreed based on past experience, but admittedly I have not used ACR/LR in years. C1 also seems to extract a lot more detail.

Jack,

I am using both LRC and C1 since ever and while C1 was significantly better WRT high ISO noise and detail years ago, I cannot find many differences anymore these days. This is not only true for Nikon Z sensors, but also for Olympus m43 sensors and even Fuji improved so much in LRC that I am using it comfortably.

And I am liking LRC more as it allows easier archiving and management of my catalogue (120k photos meanwhile) and easy integration into LR Mobile and this allows me to have wonderful selections of my photos always on my iPhone (or other mobile device) also for sharing - mind you these are high res previews - just with the standard 20GB storage you get with the standard Adobe photography package for €9,99.- a month.

 

[Jack]

FTR Peter, C1 catalogs allow the same thing . But I understand adherence to one's normal programs and workflow. I suspect over time, the two programs will be almost interchangeable min their capabilities.

 

[SrMphoto]

FWIW, I have found that the best solution for noisy images, especially from m43 cameras, is to run DxO Photo Lab 4 Deep Prime, generate a linear DNG, and continue working in LrC or C1.

 

[ptomsu]

FTR Peter, C1 catalogs allow the same thing . But I understand adherence to one's normal programs and workflow. I suspect over time, the two programs will be almost interchangeable min their capabilities.

Jack, what is the Mobile Version of C1 (like LR Mobile) that lets you see your photos also on your tablet or smartphone with automatic sync via whatever cloud? And what cloud service does C1 offer for free - Adobe has Adobe Cloud where 20G are free.

 

[Jack]

I don't load my images onto my phone and I don't own a tablet, so cannot comment on either, sorry.

 

[ptomsu]

I don't load my images onto my phone and I don't own a tablet, so cannot comment on either, sorry.

I also did not do that before LR Mobile. And I never understood why that would make any sense because I prefer to edit my photos on my MacBook Pro which I am used to.

But once I found out how syncing between LRC (Classic) and LR Mobile worked - with the previews that are basically high res (relatively) but compressed DNG files - I was sold. Just make an album in LRC and sync it to LRM and from there easily share it (or single photos) to WhatsApp, Mail, FB. Instagram. Twitter, etc. And of course you also can edit photos in LRM and you also can import all your iPhone photos (and I guess also from any Android device) automatically to LR mobile and later if you are lusting for als to LRC - just via the Adobe Cloud. And it is for free till 20G, - I currently have more that 30k photos in the cloud and still some free space.

Now you always can show photos (and videos) to anyone while on the go - I use that very often with my iPhone.

I understand that you do no want to do this because you have not seen how easy and convenient and fun this is - but you might try it and I am sure you would be happy.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I also did not do that before LR Mobile. And I never understood why that would make any sense because I prefer to edit my photos on my MacBook Pro which I am used to.

But once I found out how syncing between LRC (Classic) and LR Mobile worked - with the previews that are basically high res (relatively) but compressed DNG files - I was sold. Just make an album in LRC and sync it to LRM and from there easily share it (or single photos) to WhatsApp, Mail, FB. Instagram. Twitter, etc. And of course you also can edit photos in LRM and you also can import all your iPhone photos (and I guess also from any Android device) automatically to LR mobile and later if you are lusting for als to LRC - just via the Adobe Cloud. And it is for free till 20G, - I currently have more that 30k photos in the cloud and still some free space.

Now you always can show photos (and videos) to anyone while on the go - I use that very often with my iPhone.

I understand that you do no want to do this because you have not seen how easy and convenient and fun this is - but you might try it and I am sure you would be happy.

Your description reminds me of when I went around the world in 1998 with an OM-1, an OM-2S, four lenses and 10 rolls of Velvia. People were very impressed when I shared the images using my Leitz Pradovit tabl... device that could even project the images on the wall. The Gepe cloud devices that I kept in my drawers could store up to 100 images each, which was sufficient for me then.

I actually used the Pradovit to show some old photos to the children recently, and they enjoyed it so much that they insisted on watching hundreds of photos that night. Much more fun than boring computers and hand-held devices. I consider making printed photo albums for them to enjoy. They will be stored in my Ikea wooden cloud shelf.

As for editing software, I've been using PS/ACR for almost 25 years now. It serves me well, and I can't really see myself changing. I've heard about this new LR thing, but they say that it can contaminate the photos with Covid-21. Better stay away until the Russians come up with a new vaccine. As for cataloguing, there's a device on the top of my body called brain. It's upgraded every year and can still do that pretty well, using ancient, secret codes developed under MS DOS 6, and later translated to the exotic world of Mac OS.

 

[ptomsu]

Your description reminds me of when I went around the world in 1998 with an OM-1, an OM-2S, four lenses and 10 rolls of Velvia. People were very impressed when I shared the images using my Leitz Pradovit tabl... device that could even project the images on the wall. The Gepe cloud devices that I kept in my drawers could store up to 100 images each, which was sufficient for me then.

I actually used the Pradovit to show some old photos to the children, and they enjoyed it so much that they insisted on watching hundreds of photos that night. Much more fun than boring computers and hand-held devices. I consider making printed photo albums for them to enjoy. They will be stored in my Ikea wooden cloud shelf.

As for editing software, I've been using PS/ACR for almost 25 years now. It serves me well, and I can't really see myself changing. I've heard about this new LR thing, but they say that it can contaminate the photos with Covid-21. Better stay away until the Russians come up with a new vaccine. As for cataloguing, there's a device on the top of my body called brain. It's upgraded every year and can still do that pretty well, using ancient, secret codes developed under MS DOS 6, and later translated to the exotic world of Mac OS.

You are SUPERMAN

 

[Alfen]

I had noisephobia for years after switching from Canon APS-C to full-frame cameras: looking back at those APS-C pics, many taken at ISO 800 or above, I decided to make noise-free photos one of my goals. I avoided buying a D500 entirely on the strength of DxO's Sports score, thinking the noise levels could never compare to my D810. (I have since learned, long ago, that the DxO scores are not necessarily a basis for making a purchasing decision). I continued to upgrade my Nikons from the D850 to the Z6 and Z7 and recently traded my Z6 for a Z6 II. But after reading so many reviews of the D500 I finally decided to take the plunge—I simply wasn't getting the BIF shots I wanted with my Z7 or Z6 (maybe my skill set was lacking but I was getting a fair amount of keepers). And wow! What an awakening! I was simply stunned at the noise performance of the D500, not to mention the focussing and tracking performance. For noise, in most cases it performed as well as my Z7 and with a little processing with Topaz Denoise the differences in noise were nil.

I still don't shoot above ISO 6400 if I can help it, but I'm not afraid of letting my Auto ISO in manual exposure mode run amok. Especially after discovering DxO's PureRAW app. The problem I have with Topaz DeNoise and Sharpen AI is the processing time—it takes too long. DxO's processing of a 45 MP image takes less than 30 seconds in most cases, compared to minutes with Topaz. I have found ACR to be somewhat effective for noise and sharpening, but not nearly as much as DxO PureRAW. I am in the process of re-editing a lot of my old photos, especially the APS-C pics from many years ago.

 

[dennis47]

I can't notice any significant noise