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Thread: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Can you explain what a camera for photographers is or means? What is the T missing? Does a camera need a zillion controls and buttons and an 800 page manual? Isn't being a photographer about what you see and how you capture the light?

    Can a real real photographer create a winning image with a simple pinhole camera?

    If there were one answer to what makes a good camera all cameras would be the same. However, we know that people are different and one tool doesn't fit all.

    I like the T because it simplifies the camera back to the basic elements similar to the M's with the benefit of auto focus. But that I guess precludes me from being a real photographer.
    Terry,

    I feel very much the same way you feel about the Leica T. It is really reduced as far as possible to the essentials for photography, is very much same spirit like the M but with the advantages of having AF, zoom lenses, APSC sensor allowing for smaller and lighter camera and lenses (IMHO the overall optimum sensor size today), WiFi connectivity, GPS, an excellent EVF supporting also perfect MF and a number of other benefits a camera can bring to the table today, while still not loosing focus on essentials for photography. In my eyes a modern M.

    Using such a tool rather speaks for you being a real photographer than opposite! Also real photographers need to listen to the signs of time and evolution ....
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Can you explain what a camera for photographers is or means? What is the T missing? Does a camera need a zillion controls and buttons and an 800 page manual? Isn't being a photographer about what you see and how you capture the light?

    Can a real real photographer create a winning image with a simple pinhole camera?

    If there were one answer to what makes a good camera all cameras would be the same. However, we know that people are different and one tool doesn't fit all.

    I like the T because it simplifies the camera back to the basic elements similar to the M's with the benefit of auto focus. But that I guess precludes me from being a real photographer.
    +1

    I just spent an hour and some scanning 52 Polaroid SX-70 prints. I'm sure that makes me 'not a real photographer' to some, that I LOVE shooting with the Polaroids—focus (AF if I use the Spectra or SX-70 Sonar), no control of anything else other than lighten/darken and when to push the shutter release. Maybe when to fit the flash.

    I like the simplicity, the unpredictability. You only have to find a subject and get the light right. The prints have a warm and inviting appeal that few other cameras ever produce. They're not super sharp; they're like quiet memories that resemble what you experience rather than record it.

    The T does take Leica in a new direction. It's what follows the M, not what supplants it. The X was the first step there, this is a larger step.

    The technical remains for when it's the need. My lovely German and Canadian R lenses live happily on the A7. My superb Japanese Olympus and Panasonic-Leica lenses sing on the wunderkamera, the E-M1. Both have every feature and facility to think of and beyond.

    It's all good. Real and faux photographers can both enjoy photos together...

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    The Taifun is beautiful and innovative and could redefine the way people interact with cameras that aren't P&S. I think saying that Leica is imitating Apple or that it's just a rich man's tool is making small of a big step and risk Leica is taking. While there are parallels with apple etc, Leica is taking a decisive and bold step in a new camera system with a firm stake in the ground philosophically and technologically and I think it deserves applause. Yes there are tradeoffs, but that doesn't matter if it fits in with the buyers lifestyle, wallet, and photographic style, and also why it won't be for everyone. I'm excited for Leica and for myself. I'm not yet convinced I'll order one, but I'd certainly like to own one. Kind of like the BMW M6 that I'll never own , but admire for its engineering and beauty regardless if only rich people buy it, but this is far more affordable and could live in my photo bag someday. I've had several Nex cameras and sold every one of them very quickly. They were a mess to use for me, although I don't denigrate anyone that does use them - it's a personal thing. I love my D800e too, but for different reasons and none of them have to do with why I like Leica. The T looks beautiful and enticing, and not because of its lofty price tag, but because as a photographer I want to experience this new interface and method of taking serious pictures.

    Onto details ---

    Is there a way to do an AE lock while shooting? This would be a difficult thing to not have.

    Also wrt the software correction, from what Jono said earlier, it looks like it's mainly DNG opcodes and not firmware, unless I'm mistaken. This seems in line with the technological direction Leica is taking with an open raw format, which again would seem to be an admirable technological step?

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    My other question is: Are all cameras that use a 16MP Sony sensor "nothing more than a NEX"?
    It has more to do with Leica's choice of sensor. The T deploys Sony's entry level sensor, as used in a $300 NEX. And it doesn't even incorporate the sensor cleaning smarts.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by woodleica View Post
    Is there a way to do an AE lock while shooting? This would be a difficult thing to not have.

    Also wrt the software correction, from what Jono said earlier, it looks like it's mainly DNG opcodes and not firmware, unless I'm mistaken. This seems in line with the technological direction Leica is taking with an open raw format, which again would seem to be an admirable technological step?
    Shutter half-press locks focus and exposure, according to at least one of the reviews I read/watched. If you want focus independent of exposure, go to MF. If you want exposure independent of focus, go to manual exposure. Et cetera.

    The lens correction opcode standards were added to DNG in DNG v1.2 or v1.3, originally for Micro-FourThirds which has been using this "lens parameters injected into the raw" design since 2008. It's a tried and true mechanism ... any raw processor that knows how to read and apply the lens correction parameters as integrated into the DNG format will do the job automatically. The lenses transmit their recommended parameters to the body, the body uses them for its internal JPEG processing and pushes them into the raw files for external processing; you don't need to update the body for every new lens that comes along.

    Simplicity... :-)

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I think the "made in Germany" is highly overrated today. For example I myself cannot tell any difference between between German lenses and those manufactured in Japan, if they are manufactured up to the quality rules from Germany. Good examples are Zeiss lenses manufactured in Japan.

    Or take the Fuji X lenses, they have no German counterpart, but they are at least on the same IQ level as coming from Germany. And keep in mind that also all Hasselblad H lenses are manufactured by Fuji in Japan. Just some examples.

    I have the feeling that maybe Fuji also produces the new Leica T lenses. And this would be actually very good. Plus while manufactured in Japan the lenses are maybe half the price than manufactured in Germany. So this can only be to the benefit of the end user, at least as long as quality control is consistent. I have no doubt it is because the samples of the 23 and the 18-55 I tested on the Leica T (both JPEG and DNG developed in LR5.4) were EXCELLENT!
    It may be overrated but Leica use it to great marketing effect, continually pushing the "Made in Germany is better" hoo ha. In this instance, their T press release almost infers that the lenses are also made in Germany:

    "The outcome was the creation of the Leica T-System, a camera with an exquisite finish ‘made in Germany’ that, together with a portfolio of precise, high-performance lenses..."

    Leica T and lenses herald arrival of mirrorless T-system: Digital Photography Review

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Okay, the Leica T is cheap.

    Louis Vuitton just introduced a four piece set of carbon fiber luggage for the new BMW i8. The set can be yours for only $28,000.

    They're "cleverly calibrated down to the last millimeter."
    Last edited by bradhusick; 17th July 2014 at 09:06.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    It may be overrated but Leica use it to great marketing effect, continually pushing the "Made in Germany is better" hoo ha. In this instance, their T press release almost infers that the lenses are also made in Germany:

    "The outcome was the creation of the Leica T-System, a camera with an exquisite finish ‘made in Germany’ that, together with a portfolio of precise, high-performance lenses..."

    Leica T and lenses herald arrival of mirrorless T-system: Digital Photography Review
    This is exactly what I was referring too. Every product has got that Made In Germany sticker on its face. That's been the marketing for years but this thing with the most important parts it is not but the premium is still there. End of day the resale value will be less compared to products of the M and S. Not that it really matters but something folks need to understand though. I wish them luck with it. It's innovative in design
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Frankly, it concerned me mainly because of the high price. We haven't yet seen any measurements made on these lenses and unusual for Leica lenses no MTF charts are published as they are with the M lenses. We all know that some optics are better than others. We usually see this in the DXO optics measurements and lens ratings. I fully expect that better optics will cost more to make than inferior optics. Both can have corrections done in software up to a point. But even the least expensive lenses can have barrel distortion and various CA corrected in software; however, if the distortion to be corrected is significant we don't want to pay a high price. According to Sean Reid, any digital corrections require re-interpolating the image, at least in the area of correction and thus cannot put back what is lost or was never there. The question in my mind is how will these lenses compare to the new Sigma Art lenses that show outstanding performance and are relatively reasonably priced?

    I think Leica's statements to the DPR reporter were at the very least deceptively misleading. I guess I don't like politics being played with my photo gear and arguing over what the meaning of is is.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    I see 2 important factors here:
    a) user interface - The T goes a different route than many others here with a user interface with just few buttons, a large touch screen and a simple/plain approach. I guess it is a personal thing if this works well for someone or not. However I have to say that I allways felt most m43 mirrorless overloaded with buttons/functions and menues.
    b) how good is the glass? (no matter where it is made). If it is really good, then this makes a difference compared to some other systems.

    As we could see from the X1/2 and X-Vario same sensor supplier doesnt mean automaticaally same output.
    In case of the X-Models the IQ is (IMO) better than that what I did get from my X-Pro1 and better than what I could achieve from the Nex 5n and Nex7 and from m43 - in regards to overall look and color-at least for my taste.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Can you explain what a camera for photographers is or means? What is the T missing? Does a camera need a zillion controls and buttons and an 800 page manual? Isn't being a photographer about what you see and how you capture the light?

    Can a real real photographer create a winning image with a simple pinhole camera?

    If there were one answer to what makes a good camera all cameras would be the same. However, we know that people are different and one tool doesn't fit all.

    I like the T because it simplifies the camera back to the basic elements similar to the M's with the benefit of auto focus. But that I guess precludes me from being a real photographer.
    Decades ago, I was at a Leica workshop and we were discussing who the users were, professional or amateur; the camera at the time was the R4. The instructor said they were for "photographers". Rather ducking the question, perhaps, and we didn't get any further with him; we were all amateurs.

    What, I wonder, was the initial response to the first commercially available Leica in 1924? Was the idea of "miniature photography" seen as a step too far; perhaps even users of plate and half-plate cameras felt that a step down to medium format was too much. And now "full frame" is seen, by many, as the ideal sensor size.

    Or the original Issigonnis Mini? It didn't do well for a year or so, until Princess Margaret was seen in one, and it became the accessory to be seen in thereafter. (Though compare the size of the modern reincarnation with the original.)

    Leica does have a tradition of bling, with Luxus variants, gold plating and covers in exotic animal skin; personally, I think that's vulgar, but YMMV.

    Perhaps some people like cameras covered in buttons; I found that I was always accidentally pushing one or two, and not understanding for a while what had gone wrong. And I don't want to have to carry a manual—or even a CD—around to workout something which should be trivially simple.

    I like the idea of KISS, and I like the idea of the T; now, whether I need one or not is a different question. I doubt if it will make my photos any better, but it might well make it easier for me to take them.

    And if Leica's target market is the design, marketing or similar professional who is comfortable with an iPad and wants a camera with similar functionality, but much better results, what exactly is wrong with that?
    Sláinte

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    It has more to do with Leica's choice of sensor. The T deploys Sony's entry level sensor, as used in a $300 NEX.
    Because the sensor is surrounded by an entry level camera in the NEX 3, does this mean that the sensor itself is somehow hobbled so that it cannot perform above entry level in a more sophisticated body? My understanding is that Sony sensors are generally held in high regard in digital imaging. Similarly, does the fact that the sensor has been out for a couple of years or so mean that it is inherently incapable of performing well with state of the art camera technology?

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Decades ago, I was at a Leica workshop and we were discussing who the users were, professional or amateur; the camera at the time was the R4. The instructor said they were for "photographers". Rather ducking the question, perhaps, and we didn't get any further with him; we were all amateurs.

    What, I wonder, was the initial response to the first commercially available Leica in 1924? Was the idea of "miniature photography" seen as a step too far; perhaps even users of plate and half-plate cameras felt that a step down to medium format was too much. And now "full frame" is seen, by many, as the ideal sensor size.

    Or the original Issigonnis Mini? It didn't do well for a year or so, until Princess Margaret was seen in one, and it became the accessory to be seen in thereafter. (Though compare the size of the modern reincarnation with the original.)

    Leica does have a tradition of bling, with Luxus variants, gold plating and covers in exotic animal skin; personally, I think that's vulgar, but YMMV.

    Perhaps some people like cameras covered in buttons; I found that I was always accidentally pushing one or two, and not understanding for a while what had gone wrong. And I don't want to have to carry a manual—or even a CD—around to workout something which should be trivially simple.

    I like the idea of KISS, and I like the idea of the T; now, whether I need one or not is a different question. I doubt if it will make my photos any better, but it might well make it easier for me to take them.

    And if Leica's target market is the design, marketing or similar professional who is comfortable with an iPad and wants a camera with similar functionality, but much better results, what exactly is wrong with that?
    If you calculate this - till today roughly some 500 Million iPhones were sold: if you can get a maybe 0.1% (1/10th percent) market share of all these users to buy a Leica T then this results in 500k Leica T sold. Add to this the other smart phone users who might be also attracted just by the UI and you can see this is a huge number! Even if you do he math differential and just aim for 1/100th market share of iPhone - it still results in a total market share of 50k+ Leica T potentially sold.

    Amazing .... I would have decided similar to develop such a camera concept if I had worked for Leica and be responsible for introducing a new leading model.

    Even if these calculations are totally wrong the potential sales numbers for the Leica T are in the 10k area. Which is a lot for a small company like Leica and I doubt in that case they even would be nearly able to fulfill the demand.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I see 2 important factors here:
    a) user interface - The T goes a different route than many others here with a user interface with just few buttons, a large touch screen and a simple/plain approach. I guess it is a personal thing if this works well for someone or not. However I have to say that I allways felt most m43 mirrorless overloaded with buttons/functions and menues.
    b) how good is the glass? (no matter where it is made). If it is really good, then this makes a difference compared to some other systems.

    As we could see from the X1/2 and X-Vario same sensor supplier doesnt mean automaticaally same output.
    In case of the X-Models the IQ is (IMO) better than that what I did get from my X-Pro1 and better than what I could achieve from the Nex 5n and Nex7 and from m43 - in regards to overall look and color-at least for my taste.
    I completely agree. while the Fuji files (especially RAW) are very good, from what I tried and tested with the Leica T the files are superior. Especially when it comes to OOC DNG, which results in an image in LR5.4 which almost needs NO corrections. Which one definitely cannot say from either Fuji and/or Olympus m43 RAW output - in NO post processing SW. And I do not even want to compare to Sony NEX, which I never liked from the very beginning. I think that it is at least as important to handle a sensor the right way via in camera processing in order to achieve top results. No doubt for me that the Leica T will top most of the Sony APSC cameras.

    And of course this is even improved by optimal lenses, where I have no doubt that Leica is doing their job right (at least from what I tested).

    So if this all holds true (and I have no slightest doubts), then this makes the Leica T the definite object of lust for many I think - including myself.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    Because the sensor is surrounded by an entry level camera in the NEX 3, does this mean that the sensor itself is somehow hobbled so that it cannot perform above entry level in a more sophisticated body? My understanding is that Sony sensors are generally held in high regard in digital imaging. Similarly, does the fact that the sensor has been out for a couple of years or so mean that it is inherently incapable of performing well with state of the art camera technology?
    Exactly. The APS-C 16Mpixel Sony sensor is excellent quality, and is the basis of several well-regarded cameras (Pentax K5, NEX 3/5n/6, Leica X2/X Vario, amongst others). If I were designing a camera system today and I was not a chip maker, it's one of the top-notch sensors that would be on my short list to consider.

    There's so much more to consider in a camera than just what sensor it is using. Unless the point of the new camera is to ballyhoo a brand new sensor design, you're better off picking something known to work, known to be proven, and reducing risk.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    It has more to do with Leica's choice of sensor. The T deploys Sony's entry level sensor, as used in a $300 NEX. And it doesn't even incorporate the sensor cleaning smarts.
    Yes, indeed, but not quite the same, as it has no AA sensor . . . worth mentioning (as I just realise Godfrey has too ) also that this sensor was also used in:
    Ricoh GR
    Nikon D7000
    Pentax K5 IIs
    and other excellent cameras.

    All depends how you put it doesn't it?

    It's a fine sensor. (although there are more recent 24mp models - which might or might not be an advantage).

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    It's a fine sensor. (although there are more recent 24mp models - which might or might not be an advantage).
    If the T was 24MP is might think twice about ordering it. While storage is cheap I don't want files that big for a number reasons including offloading files to an iPad when traveling and sending files to friends.

    Also as noted in a lot of places shooting discipline goes up etc.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Interesting thing about beauty...

    I've been shooting with my MM here on holiday, alongside one of my fixed 35mm (why the **** doesn't anyone do a 50mm?) -- either the X100 or the RX1 -- and, unanimously, people get all excited with the black and chrome Fuji. They ask if I shoot film. They want to play with it. They want to pose.

    Now, I tend to then pass them the MM just because most have not seen a rangefinder and, well, it *is* unique… but it's the little Fuji with its retro looks and quiet shutter that opens up doors and allows me to shoot with my clunky MM.

    I couldn't help thinking about the oohs and ahs the T would draw.

    It is unique. It begs people to fondle it. And when people want to fondle it, they are much more likely not to mind you shooting them as long as you give them a play.

    If only it had on offer a luscious 50mm Lux (preferably Nocti rather than Summi), I would so be there!

    (even as I've come to realise I actually suck at auto-focus, lol)
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Funny Cam the T doesn't feel small it it makes the M's look sort of large and clunky (no offense to M shooters it's all relative).

    But yes a fixed 50mm camera or a 50 prime for T would make me very happy.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    My M-Rokkor 40/2 or Nokton 40/1.4 would do fine as surrogate 50 on the T's APS-C format until such time as Leica provides an AF lens for the task. :-)

    It's just right really ... I appreciate AF much more for focusing the wide and ultra wide lenses, by the time I get to a normal I rarely need AF except for convenience.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    I think it is only a matter of time till Leica will bring something like a fast 50 lens for the T. Although this might be long time as we are dealing with Leica, but who knows ....

    Meanwhile I will use either my M 1.4/50 ASPH or my 1.4/75 which I still own. Or my Noctilux 1.0/50. Using some of my M glass was one of the reasons I ordered the T, although I finally would prefer AF lenses in the end.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    when you say 50mm lens, do you mean 50mm equivalent?

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    when you say 50mm lens, do you mean 50mm equivalent?
    Yes… my bad.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    when you say 50mm lens, do you mean 50mm equivalent?
    That was what I assumed was meant. :-)

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yes, indeed, but not quite the same, as it has no AA sensor . . . worth mentioning (as I just realise Godfrey has too ) also that this sensor was also used in:
    Ricoh GR
    Nikon D7000
    Pentax K5 IIs
    and other excellent cameras.

    All depends how you put it doesn't it?

    It's a fine sensor. (although there are more recent 24mp models - which might or might not be an advantage).
    I agree, those cameras were and still are excellent but that sensor has been around for several years (the D7000 was released in 2010) and is really showing it's age.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I agree, those cameras were and still are excellent but that sensor has been around for several years (the D7000 was released in 2010) and is really showing it's age.
    In what way? The photos it makes seem just as crisp, fully detailed as ever. The DR is very good, the sensitivity/noise is great all the way to ISO 6400 and beyond. What's not to like?
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I agree, those cameras were and still are excellent but that sensor has been around for several years (the D7000 was released in 2010) and is really showing it's age.
    I am showing my age too, as are all of my cameras except one. Doesn't seem to affect my photos in a negative way though

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    In what way? The photos it makes seem just as crisp, fully detailed as ever. The DR is very good, the sensitivity/noise is great all the way to ISO 6400 and beyond. What's not to like?
    This sensor is perfectly adequate for stills but not for video. A current generation sensor would have allowed Leica to offer far more comprehensive video capabilities.

    Perhaps it's just me, but I don't why you'd go all out with a state of the art body and touch interface and, for the most important element, fit a 4 year old sensor. And then, omit image stabilization as well as self cleaning sensor smarts.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Hi Lambert
    Good points all (and I agree). I suspect that the answer is that Leica are not a huge company, and they don't hold patents for IBIS, and don't want to get stuck with other peoples tech. Added to which, introducing a new product is expensive.
    On the other hand, the camera IS great for shooting stills, I've not had a dirty sensor issue.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    It has more to do with Leica's choice of sensor. The T deploys Sony's entry level sensor, as used in a $300 NEX. And it doesn't even incorporate the sensor cleaning smarts.
    So you meant this just for video performance? I see. I thought you were generalising.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Lambert
    Good points all (and I agree). I suspect that the answer is that Leica are not a huge company, and they don't hold patents for IBIS, and don't want to get stuck with other peoples tech. Added to which, introducing a new product is expensive.
    On the other hand, the camera IS great for shooting stills, I've not had a dirty sensor issue.
    Hi Jono, I appreciate there are complexities with IBIS, but why not lens based IS, which would have been very achievable?

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    So you meant this just for video performance? I see. I thought you were generalising.
    More so for video than stills. Perhaps I'm just the odd one out, but fitting a state of the art body with 4 year old sensor tech just seems so jabberwocky, particularly when you consider that the body with (slow/non image stabilized) kit zoom and EVF will sell for over $5k (Aussie dollars).
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Hi Jono, I appreciate there are complexities with IBIS, but why not lens based IS, which would have been very achievable?
    I think that's because it inevitably makes the lenses quite a bit bigger, and let's face it, it's not really necessary for a mid range zoom (and doesn't work all that well either).

    I would guess that if this camera is a success, then they will do something later on.

    On the other hand, it's interesting that we all feel we need these aids (focus peaking and IBIS being the most obvious omissions on the T). But shooting with a camera with useable 6400 ISO I've had no problems either focusing (without focus peaking) or with camera shake (without IBIS) - in this instance I think the very gentle shutter and the substantial body have an effect.

    Certainly though - if one buys cameras on the basis of box ticking then you wouldn't buy this one . . . and of course, the useful things about the camera:
    1. lovely quiet shutter
    2. minimal and interesting interface
    3. fine small AF lenses
    4. Original design
    don't really have boxes to be ticked against them.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    More so for video than stills. Perhaps I'm just the odd one out, but fitting a state of the art body with 4 year old sensor tech just seems so jabberwocky, particularly when you consider that the body with (slow/non image stabilized) kit zoom and EVF will sell for over $5k (Aussie dollars).
    So which particular sensor would you have preferred?
    I know the sensor of the x2/X-Vario and of the K5iis all deliver very good IQ.
    I think the em1 sensor is maybe? newer, I cant see the real benefit (of course its hard to compare because its different sizes).
    I would think lenses and user interface are much more important here.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    More so for video than stills. Perhaps I'm just the odd one out, but fitting a state of the art body with 4 year old sensor tech just seems so jabberwocky, particularly when you consider that the body with (slow/non image stabilized) kit zoom and EVF will sell for over $5k (Aussie dollars).
    I always keep wondering why you say 4 year old sensor? Are you really sure? I for myself am sure that even the sensor from the D7000 (2010) got an update in the meantime. And if this update is only to remove AA filter, which I doubt is the only one.

    But even leaving this consideration out - if you want newest, latest, state of the art technology then Leica is sure not the vendor to go with, they always have been conservative. Not that I would not sometimes like even more innovation, but keeping complaining will not change anything. Only solution for you is no longer to look at a Leica T.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think that's because it inevitably makes the lenses quite a bit bigger, and let's face it, it's not really necessary for a mid range zoom (and doesn't work all that well either).

    I would guess that if this camera is a success, then they will do something later on.

    On the other hand, it's interesting that we all feel we need these aids (focus peaking and IBIS being the most obvious omissions on the T). But shooting with a camera with useable 6400 ISO I've had no problems either focusing (without focus peaking) or with camera shake (without IBIS) - in this instance I think the very gentle shutter and the substantial body have an effect.

    Certainly though - if one buys cameras on the basis of box ticking then you wouldn't buy this one . . . and of course, the useful things about the camera:
    1. lovely quiet shutter
    2. minimal and interesting interface
    3. fine small AF lenses
    4. Original design
    don't really have boxes to be ticked against them.
    Jono,

    fully agree! And maybe we should have boxes to tick for what is really great with the Leica T? Maybe then others would get problems?

    Just my 5c.....
    Last edited by ptomsu; 6th May 2014 at 05:02.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    The T is what it is.

    However, I think implying IBIS is a marginal feature in defense of this camera is pushing it a wee bit.

    If the camera is intended for those less involved with photography, IBIS goes a good distance toward helping the user produce better IQ … and isn't that what Leica professes to be all about? The next cell phones are said to have IS for that very reason.

    Most people the T seems to be aimed at may not have good lens changing habits like many of us … so sensor cleaning aids would have been nice.

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    - if you want newest, latest, state of the art technology then Leica is sure not the vendor to go with, they always have been conservative.
    The first FF MILC, the first jacket pocket size aps-c sensor camera (the Sigma DP1 was first but had a slightly smaller sensor) sounds pretty innovative to me. I ordered both the day of the announcement, literally within minutes.
    But that was 2009.
    In 2014 Leica stands for emotional luxury products. Nothing wrong about that, but such products are never cutting edge technology.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    The first FF MILC, the first jacket pocket size aps-c sensor camera (the Sigma DP1 was first but had a slightly smaller sensor) sounds pretty innovative to me. I ordered both the day of the announcement, literally within minutes.
    But that was 2009.
    In 2014 Leica stands for emotional luxury products. Nothing wrong about that, but such products are never cutting edge technology.
    I have mixed feelings. I do NOT disagree that for some part Leica is going for the emotional luxury factor.
    On the other side their cameras are still all designed in a way that they are made to be used.
    Very good and simple in regards of user interface.
    And in regards of lenses Leica usually reachs very high standards. Plus if you look at the newer high quality lenses from Nikon/Canon/Zeiss Leica lenses do not seem as overpriced anymore.
    Pretty impressive how good some 20 year old Leica M lenses work on high resolution sensors.

    Making the camera out of one piece of alluminium and polishing it...well, I don't need something like that, but if you see the success and price of iphones I don't blame Leica that they also jump on that trend.
    I am surprised all the time what people pay for their smartphones and how often they do replace it.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    More so for video than stills. Perhaps I'm just the odd one out, but fitting a state of the art body with 4 year old sensor tech just seems so jabberwocky, particularly when you consider that the body with (slow/non image stabilized) kit zoom and EVF will sell for over $5k (Aussie dollars).
    I think it's much more important that you fit a fine camera body with a solid, proven sensor, a quiet, vibrationless shutter, and top notch controls that perform beautifully than always push the envelope with the latest fandangled sensor.

    - Many could care less about video, or use it only for occasional clip captures. This sensor does fine with that.

    - The lack of IS is not an issue for most uses. I haven't missed it a bit with the X2, M9, GXR, or A7, for instance. Having it in the E-M1 is wonderful, for sure. IS has its issues too; many complain that IS cuts the edge off imaging quality. It's a not a panacea, nor does it imply the level of quality of a body. The more expensive Leica M doesn't have it either, and no one's complaining about it far as I've heard.

    The only one of your points that I do miss is the lack of automatic sensor cleaning, like the Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony A7 have. But the M9, M, and GXR don't have it either, and to be honest I haven't found its lack a problem at all. That has nothing to do with the sensor, it's a body feature.

    So the T is not for you. Such it is. I'm not sure yet that it's for me, but I like it a lot. I also still like my 2003 Olympus E-1...

    G
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Can you explain what a camera for photographers is or means?
    Ask Leica - they said it. This camera is also not an "enthusiast" or "pro" camera, if you want to toss in more adjectives. Doesn't mean a photographer can't or won't use it.
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Negative View Post
    Ask Leica - they said it. This camera is also not an "enthusiast" or "pro" camera, if you want to toss in more adjectives. Doesn't mean a photographer can't or won't use it.
    A camera for non-photographers is perhaps a more interesting concept

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    A camera for non-photographers is perhaps a more interesting concept
    Indeed... Unfortunately, I cannot say more about it.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    camera obscura, perhaps?

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I think it's much more important that you fit a fine camera body with a solid, proven sensor, a quiet, vibrationless shutter, and top notch controls that perform beautifully than always push the envelope with the latest fandangled sensor.

    - Many could care less about video, or use it only for occasional clip captures. This sensor does fine with that.

    - The lack of IS is not an issue for most uses. I haven't missed it a bit with the X2, M9, GXR, or A7, for instance. Having it in the E-M1 is wonderful, for sure. IS has its issues too; many complain that IS cuts the edge off imaging quality. It's a not a panacea, nor does it imply the level of quality of a body. The more expensive Leica M doesn't have it either, and no one's complaining about it far as I've heard.

    The only one of your points that I do miss is the lack of automatic sensor cleaning, like the Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony A7 have. But the M9, M, and GXR don't have it either, and to be honest I haven't found its lack a problem at all. That has nothing to do with the sensor, it's a body feature.

    So the T is not for you. Such it is. I'm not sure yet that it's for me, but I like it a lot. I also still like my 2003 Olympus E-1...

    G
    Agreed, this glam cam is not for me

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Agreed, this glam cam is not for me
    What do you have against glam cams, may I ask?

    I am quite glam myself…
    my flickr
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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    camera obscura, perhaps?
    However the Leica T might beg description, I doubt it will be 'obscure' given that since its announcement:

    - it's been one of the top two popular cameras on DPR.
    - the Boring video has gone viral across the internet, with published spoofs in several established venues.
    - every person writing in PhotoBlogDumb has taken the moment to weigh in with the Leica Haters, Leica Lovers, Leica FanBoyz, or Leica Agnostic But Had To Say Something Anyway crowds.
    - every photo forum regardless of brand affiliation on every social venue has had at least one lengthy and passionately debated thread on the subject of the T.
    - the early delivery batch of product seems to have sold out within a week, and most dealers have pre-orders and waiting lists for more sales; this despite EVERYONE saying "darn, that little bugger is expensive!"

    Taifun indeed. If I were a member of Leica's product development and marketing teams, I'd be pretty pleased at all the publicity.

    (I do know what a camera obscura is... forgive the pun. ;-)

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    It's very simple logic:
    For the price of a medium advanced Canon or Nikon DSLR (which are manufactured by the millions, so people apparently have that kind of money available), customers will get a stylish, partly handmade, Leica camera that is compact and easy to use. Lenses are expensive, but Leica lenses are legendary, so most of those who can afford them will accept the price. They are cheaper than a Noctilux anyway. I believe this camera pushes the right buttons for many.

    The only thing I think they have missed out on is dust removal. There will be dust, and many don't know how to deal with it. IS is useful, but Leica is a conservative bunch and most potential users will use a flash and/or high ISO for the party shots anyway.

    If they come up with 3 zooms (and apparently, they will) and 2 primes (a portrait lens too), I'm sure I could live with this as my only camera. I won't, since it's too much money for me, but there are millions of others with sufficient cash to spend.

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    Since the black version will not be out for several months I'm curious if it is still polished aluminum with black paint cover (or perhaps anodized) or is the polishing not needed with a colored version? If the polishing is not needed would the price reflect this?

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    Re: Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

    As 45 minutes of this kind of labour probaly costs ~ €20 , I guess Leica will not bother to lower the price of a non-polished black T. Marketing will probably say that amount just covers the black paint :-)

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