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Thread: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

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    Super Duper
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    HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Good morning together.
    I am not a MF user so far (only some years ago with film), using Nikon (D3) and Leica M8.
    However I constantly feel that I see nicer tonality and a special MF look also in the digital world. (kind of what has been discussed in Guy´s thread lately).
    I am doing this for a hobby so I wont spend 20k or more.
    Now I saw the H3DII-31 promotion (10K+tax+lens or 12k+tax including lens)- and also saw an offer for a used H3DII-22. (for 7000 € incl. tax)
    I am a little afraid that the H3DII-31 is not a "full frame" MF camera.
    Would I get the same MF-look as with larger sensors.
    Can anybody comment on the H3DII-22 sensor? Larger sensor and larger pixels, shouldnt it supply superior image quality as long as I dont need more resolution then 22 MPIX? Why is it slower than the 31MP sensor, ands why would the 31MP sensor allow togo to higher ISO.
    I guess my main question is: is "1.3 crop" a big compromise regarding IQ (lens multiplier is ok for me- I would want to go 50+80 or 50+100).

    And: would you think the overall price level is coming down to that Hasselblad promotion or do you think that it really is a very good deal/chance if one wants to step into MF

    Thanks for any feeback,
    Tom

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    re speed and iso;

    The 31MP uses dual readouts hence the faster capture rate. The 22MP only has one readout.

    The 31MP has microlenses on top of each pixels which gives it an extra stop of sensitivity (although it loses 1 stop at the base).

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Tom , Both the Hassy and Phase one backs use the same Kodak sensor. The 22mpx backs are 9 micron sensors and the Hassy 31 and p30 from phase i believe are 6.8 micron sensors and have the micro lenses on them which will help reduce moire. The 22mpx will work with technical cameras better without color shift. The ones with the micro lenses will not work as well and color shift can occur with the technical cameras. So tilt and shift work will be harder to do. I shoot the Phase P25 plus back which is 22mpx and i do like it very much. Is it better or not , well still trying to figure that one out but certainly not worse by any stretch. I think the 22mpx has better color and tonal range but I can't prove it and not going to try or argue about it. LOL
    They both are great sensors but there are limits on the micro lens sensors plus there is a crop also. These are more intended for fashion and wedding guys with moire in mind plus they have the extra stop in ISO . P30 Plus can go to ISO 1600 and the Hassy to ISO 800 for the moment and will go to 1600 with the Phocus software in the future. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this. I don't follow the Hassy as well as the Phase. I chose the P25 22mpx sensor because I can use the back in more situations and if i need to put it on a view camera and such than i avoid the color shift issue. What i would do Tom is try them both out and see what system works best for you. Also Mamiya/Phase is a focal plane system with a new leaf shutter lens coming and Hassy is a leaf shutter system which has a higher sync speed but a lower top end speed which I think is 1/800 at the most and the Mamiya/Phase is 1/4000. So you have to see what system best fits you. I went focal plane myself
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    One other comment to the above: The micro lenses do help with moire, but do so acting kind of like very light AA filter to the image, so the files tend to need a bit more capture sharpening compared to the naked sensors. I would suggest your intended subject matter should drive the decision: If I were shooting weddings, portraits, fashion or other people events, I would choose the H3D31II; if I were shooting products, machinery or landscape, and/OR planned on mounting the back to camera with movements, I would choose the H3D22II... If I were doing a little of both, I'd then probably go for the larger sensor area for the added field of view with the lenses and choose the 22...

    In the end, there really isn't a bad choice
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Also Tom there are some very good deals on the Hassy 22 and the Phase P25 non plus. Look in the B&S section under commercial vendors section. But again try and get your hands on them and try them out first.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Thank you for these helpfull comments.
    I would use the camera mainly for landscape and for portrait stuff.
    I have to say that since owning this 24 PC-E lens for my D3 I also get more and more interested in movements.
    From what I read here I get the feeling that the larger sensor without microlenses might fit my needs better.
    The higher ISO is not that much important for me, because I dont think I would use this system in low light.
    A focal plane system with (in the future) new leaf shutter lenses would of course mean the high flexibility, one can choose between the two. Overall I would think to do more with natural light, so plane system might be better since I would not have to mess around with ND filters.
    Again, thanks so far for the feedback.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Agreed; There is no substitute for getting hands on experience. Although we here at Capture Integration prefer Phase One (we used to sell other brands, but stopped because of our strong preference), we'd be the first to tell you that all of the MFDBs have both strengths and weaknesses.

    Try several systems out first, and see how the total package comes together for your style of shooting and workflow: warranty, service (the reputation of the manufacturer), support (the reputation of the dealer), software workflow, compatibility, camera options, lens options, and price all matter different amounts to different photographers.

    Also, since you are shooting landscape the selection of a body and lens is almost as important as your selection of a back. Leave, or create, some room in your budget for a dedicated technical camera (i.e. Horseman, Cambo, Arca-Swiss, Alpa, and Silvestri). This will give you have access to the high-quality large format lenses (e.g. the Rodenstock 35mm). This will also give you intra-image-circle stitching and rise/fall/shift.

    Having one body for landscapes (a tech camera) and another for portraits (an SLR) is not necessary (e.g. forum member Don Libby for example is very happy, and produces great images, with his Phase One and Mamiya 28mm for landscapes). But it's something you should definitely look into.

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    When I was studying in Scotland I had many friends who geared their travel plans around visiting each of the major Scotch producers. Perhaps you could plan a family vacation and visit a Phase dealer, a Leaf dealer, a Hasselblad dealer, and a Sinar dealer. Just make sure you do the whole workflow (from opening the case to printing the image).

    Then maybe a distillery to help soften the pain of writing the check :-).

    :-)

    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    PS: Doug hints at a good point, and one I think we don't give enough weight in our decision: the entire workflow... With digital MF, not only is the back and camera choice significant, but IMO so is the workflow of getting the images off the back and into some usable form. It is definitely a good exercise to run a raw file from the manufacturers you are considering through their proprietary raw converter and see how you "fit" with the workflow. Not that it will be the end-all decision point, but it may be a scale tipper if all else is close...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Tom FYI for the Hassy software it is Phocus which is supposed to be very good.

    Phase is obviously C1 and does a great job on there files.

    Lot's of reading here you should catch up on also.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Microlenses (at least the type use on the Kodak 31MP) have nothing to do with moire, they're only there to increase sensitivity i.e. "attract" more light into each pixel.
    If the 31MP shows less moire than the 22MP it's only because it's got more pixels in it.

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Yair looks like Phase does claim it does. At least it says that

    http://www.phaseone.com/upload/pplusoverview_002.pdf
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yair looks like Phase does claim it does. At least it says that
    Well....KODAK doesn't claim so and you know who I work for....(neither do H'blad BTW).

    I can show you similar frames taken with 28MP and 31MP where the 31MP shows the same amount of colour moire if not more...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    My firsthand experience supports what Yair is saying.
    I borrowed a friend's P30+ thinking it would take care
    of the moiré in some organza fashion I was photographing.
    It didn't fare any better than with a Leaf Aptus 75.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    interesting, because it clearly helped on the P30+ compared to the P25 when Guy and I tested them in Puerto Rico...
    Jack
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  16. #16
    andershald
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Hi t streng.

    I too am looking at the Hasselblad offer for the H3DII-31. There is a long post and great input from other users at this forum called Considering the H3DII-31 about my considerations. I tried the 31 and it is really nice. I was surprised (by looking at the frame indicators in the viewfinder) how little more sensor area you get with the 22.

    I then tested the P25+ (22m pxl) on the PhaseOne/Mamiya camera. I was surprised at the amount of moire and weird artefacts in hair, I got. Also the framerate was too slow for my type of work. I shoot kids fashion a lot, so that back is definately not for me. Today I downloaded the brand new version of Capture One 4, it is a great piece of software, and the files (that don't have fabric or hair in them) look really nice. I haven't quite ruled out the PhaseOne/Mamya system yet, but I think for my work the P30+ would be better suited. I don't do any landscape work or use a technical camera so the microlenses are only an advantage for my type of work.

    The P25+ (and quite probably the Hasselblad 22 back too) is obviously a very competent back, so you need to try the two backs for the type of work you intend to use them for. A test will also help you decide if the sensor size makes a real difference for you and what lenses you'd need.

    For the 31 back I really miss a fast 65mm lens in the Hasselblad line up a the 50 is equivalent to a 35mm lens on a DSLR and the 80 is more like a 70mm, so I you too miss this lens, please go to the Hasselblad website and use the contacts page to send them a suggestion to produce such a lens. It might only take a hundred emails to make it happen.

    I didn't see a tool in C1 for removing Moire, perhaps I missed something? Anyone? I only used the software for 15 minutes so far, so I could have missed something. Phocus might have a fix for Moire from the Hasselblad back? The 22 back is appearantly being discontinued, so you should be able to negotiate a very good price for one if the dealer has one in stock.

    I really like the H3DII camera, it has a lot to like about the design, but I haven't yet tried the Phocus software, as I am a pc user, but a Beta version should be out now, and final pc version will be presented at Photokina.

    Good luck in deciding.

    Best regards,
    Anders

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Phocus has a Moire' correction tool as part of the noise brick.

    I don't shoot fashion so I haven't had the occasion to use it but I would recommend you talk to Steve Hendrix at PPR in Atlanta who is the most experienced guy with Focus that I know. Marc Williams may also be a resource.

    You can reach Steve at 404-543-8475. He is a super guy who I am sure will be helpful

    Woody

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    New Pro version of C1 Version 4 will have Moire control. Be out soon . Right now Pro 3.78 version has it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  19. #19
    andershald
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post

    And: would you think the overall price level is coming down to that Hasselblad promotion or do you think that it really is a very good deal/chance if one wants to step into MF

    Thanks for any feeback,
    Tom
    Tom, I forgot to mention. The H3DII-31 offer has been extended until end of year. My dealer here said that it is HB's intention to have a system at that price level, so it could be the new regular price. I think it will be difficult for them to raise the price again, at least on that product.

    We could be in luck that HB's strategy means a future with more affordable MFDBs.

    But I do still think that the offer is a very tempting deal and definately a good price.


    Anders

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    interesting, because it clearly helped on the P30+ compared to the P25 when Guy and I tested them in Puerto Rico...
    Yes and the P45 will do better and the P65 will do even better....more pixels = less moire

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Welcome Tom.

    I think you were clear in your specifications as to what type of work interests you most.

    I have (or have had) all of the Hasselblad backs including the 22 meg version, and same for the Leaf backs. I now own and use a Hasselblad CFV, H3D-II/31, and H3D-II/39.

    IF you even think you will be doing work with a view camera or any technical camera using tilts and shifts ... I'd shy away from the crop frame 1/3X sensors with microlenses. They produce color casts which are not easy to correct in post. Plus, even the slight extra area is helpful when working with tech cameras. I use my H3D-II/31 for fast paced portrait, fashion and event work. The camera is fast, fast, fast.

    Obviously, budget is a main consideration. However, I would step up your game and look at a P45 refurbished back, rather than a new unit. Pricing may surprize you. The sensor is the same size as the 22 meg version but captures 39 meg RAW files rather than 22. The choice of camera depends on your needs.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Quote Originally Posted by andershald View Post
    Hi t streng.

    I too am looking at the Hasselblad offer for the H3DII-31. There is a long post and great input from other users at this forum called Considering the H3DII-31 about my considerations. I tried the 31 and it is really nice. I was surprised (by looking at the frame indicators in the viewfinder) how little more sensor area you get with the 22.

    I then tested the P25+ (22m pxl) on the PhaseOne/Mamiya camera. I was surprised at the amount of moire and weird artefacts in hair, I got. Also the framerate was too slow for my type of work. I shoot kids fashion a lot, so that back is definately not for me. Today I downloaded the brand new version of Capture One 4, it is a great piece of software, and the files (that don't have fabric or hair in them) look really nice. I haven't quite ruled out the PhaseOne/Mamya system yet, but I think for my work the P30+ would be better suited. I don't do any landscape work or use a technical camera so the microlenses are only an advantage for my type of work.

    The P25+ (and quite probably the Hasselblad 22 back too) is obviously a very competent back, so you need to try the two backs for the type of work you intend to use them for. A test will also help you decide if the sensor size makes a real difference for you and what lenses you'd need.

    For the 31 back I really miss a fast 65mm lens in the Hasselblad line up a the 50 is equivalent to a 35mm lens on a DSLR and the 80 is more like a 70mm, so I you too miss this lens, please go to the Hasselblad website and use the contacts page to send them a suggestion to produce such a lens. It might only take a hundred emails to make it happen.

    I didn't see a tool in C1 for removing Moire, perhaps I missed something? Anyone? I only used the software for 15 minutes so far, so I could have missed something. Phocus might have a fix for Moire from the Hasselblad back? The 22 back is appearantly being discontinued, so you should be able to negotiate a very good price for one if the dealer has one in stock.

    I really like the H3DII camera, it has a lot to like about the design, but I haven't yet tried the Phocus software, as I am a pc user, but a Beta version should be out now, and final pc version will be presented at Photokina.

    Good luck in deciding.

    Best regards,
    Anders
    Anders

    I may be wrong but I believe the only Phase software which deals with Moire' is Capture One Pro. It is now stuck at version 3.7.8 but I would bet we may be seeing the new version come Photokina.

    Doug Peterson at Capture integration may have more insight into this.

    Woody

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    That is correct Woody. Moire control is only in 3.7.8 at the moment. I was promised the new Pro version coming out does have Moire control. Should be out very soon. Looking forward to it. Been a C1 fan since my original 1ds, man that seems like ages ago.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Guy

    It was about 10,000 pages of Fred Miranda ago LOL!

    Woody

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Maybe more. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Thanks again for all the feedback.
    I think I would really like to go in direction of the larger sensor.
    It seems there are also good prices on refurb P25.

    Now it looks like prices are around 7k € for a refurb P25 and 10k € for a new P25+ or 11k for a refurn P45.

    Can anybody comment on the P25 vs P25+?

    For the Hasselblad H3IID users: Does anybody use it with waist level finder?
    How would you guys rate the H3IID vs Phase 645 Camera (besides the differences of the shutter in the camera vs only shutter in the lens)?

    Question to fotografz: "Obviously, budget is a main consideration. However, I would step up your game and look at a P45 refurbished back" - Why? Because of higher resolution or because of less problems with moire?

    Again, thanks for all the help!!!

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    Super Duper
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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    I'll leave it to others to communicate their impressions of the H3D verses the Phase 645.

    Suffice it to say that for my applications I needed ALL of my lens choices to feature high shutter speed sync, so the comparison was a moot point ... I needed a leaf shutter type 645 camera. I did have and use a Mamiya 645AFD-II which did not compare favorably to the H3D, but the Phase One version (AKA: AFD-III) is supposed to be an excellent improvement.

    The P25 verses the P45 (and + or not) ... or any 22 meg verses a 39 meg ... depends on your applications as they relate to your budget. Having something you won't use is a waste of money. Not having it if you need it is even worse.

    I opted for a 39 meg sensor over the 22 meg version I once had because I found that I needed the additional resolution for a number of technical reasons. Moire was the least of those reasons. Severe cropping by art directors, and the need for lots of bleed area around the main image area for magazine reproduction was the primary reason ... that, and even greater detail in product photography for industrial clients.

    One further consideration: the only digital backs that allow you to use them on an array of different medium format cameras are the backs from Sinar, and the CF digital back models from Hasselblad. This is accomplished through the use of adapters for each different camera.

    H3D-II backs cannot do this at all (they CAN be used on technical cameras like a view camera), Phase One backs are fixed mounts, as are Leaf backs. These Mounts can be changed for a fee ... but do not have the "at will" ability to be used on different MF cameras like the Sinar and Hasselblad CF backs can.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    P25 Vs P25 Plus. LCD improvements on the Plus , ISO is better on the Plus 1 stop. There is more but I am forgetting it at the moment
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: HD3II-22 vs HD3II-31

    Tom if you're already looking outside H'blad's offerings then you should check our current EU promotions - especially the new and refurbished Aptus backs (Aptus 75 for under 10K EUR...)

    good luck

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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