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Thread: ALPA tilt swing adapter

  1. #1
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    ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Just had the email about the new adapter.

    Looks like a typically weird Alpa cobbled together contraption.

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - Home

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    re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    I guess it means you need to remount your existing lenses. Ouch.

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    re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    With Alpa updating their tilt-swing offerings it seems a good time to get an updated survey of the pancake Tilt Shift options out there.

    Cambo Tilt and Swing:
    - requires lens retrofit into TS mount
    - widest Schneider: 43mm
    - widest Rodenstock: 28mm
    - tilt and swing can be applied simultaneously

    Arca Tilt and Swing:
    - built into body, every lens works without retrofit
    - widest Schneider: 24mm (all)
    - widest Rodenstock: 23mm (all)
    - tilt, or swing, not both at the same time

    Alpa Tilt and Swing:
    - requires lens retrofit, and separate adapter
    - widest Schneider: 60mm
    - widest Rodenstock: 32mm
    - tilt, or swing, not both at the same time

    Feel free to make any corrections, or to add other pancake platforms to the list.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    I guess it means you need to remount your existing lenses. Ouch.
    That is a surprise!

    Can't believe it's taken so long to produce a frame with a grub screw attached to induce tilt/swing.

    Not very elegant IMO and somewhere that Cambo and especially Arca have implemented very well. Who designs Alpa cameras...... Mr Meccano?

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    ....Can't believe it's taken so long to produce a frame with a grub screw attached to induce tilt/swing.

    ..... Who designs Alpa cameras...... Mr Meccano?
    Things are simple at the top.

    Kidding! I'd still like an Alpa....just because.

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    re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    This is the sort of thread you really miss having an Alpa rep on the board to highlight the advantages of the new product and answer questions.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Alpa also put together a nice whitepaper on tilt/swing here too:
    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - Parallel shift and Scheimpflug lens tilt

    No real solution for wide non-retro focus lenses such as the Schneiders so if you have an SK35/47 etc then you're basically going to switching to a Rodie in 17mm mount with the narrow T/S adapter. The Rodie 32 & 40 are both nice options - at a price naturally.


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Can't believe it's taken so long to produce a frame with a grub screw attached to induce tilt/swing.

    Not very elegant IMO and somewhere that Cambo and especially Arca have implemented very well. Who designs Alpa cameras...... Mr Meccano?
    Well what did you expect? Short of producing a completely new lens mount camera the options are pretty limited for the existing body. It might have been interesting if they'd produced a mount approach of Cambo per lens - the adapter is probably better if you have multiple lenses for T/S vs buying a T/S mount per lens.

    It'll be interesting to compare the cost of entry to the 17mm T/S adapter and a new Rodie 32/40 vs a system change to Cambo and a lens remount of SK 35/47 ... I suspect that a new Cambo would be pretty close.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Well what did you expect?
    A solution that works!

    Would be helpful if it was compatible with all styles of wide angle lens designs rather than just retro focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Short of producing a completely new lens mount camera the options are pretty limited for the existing body.
    But purchasing a new body or lens mount sound much more cost effective and than potentially having to re-purchase all your lenses again.

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    re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    grub screw...love that term!

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    If you could combine Cambo's T/S mount with Arca's focusing system and ALPA's badge then you would have the perfect tech camera:-)

    Jokes aside, it is great to see a tilt solution for ALPA users even if it somewhat limited

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    You guys can poke fun at ALPA all you like. I have owned a few Arca Swiss cameras and they are very useful, but never as SEXY as an ALPA.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Just had the email about the new adapter.

    Looks like a typically weird Alpa cobbled together contraption.

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - Home
    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    That is a surprise!

    Can't believe it's taken so long to produce a frame with a grub screw attached to induce tilt/swing.

    Not very elegant IMO and somewhere that Cambo and especially Arca have implemented very well. Who designs Alpa cameras...... Mr Meccano?
    You seem to be very proud of your totally overdriven sarcasm which is entirely
    inappropriate here and almost an offence .
    Is that the way a discussion should be here in the forum ? No , surely not .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    You seem to be very proud of your totally overdriven sarcasm which is entirely
    inappropriate here and almost an offence .
    Is that the way a discussion should be here in the forum ? No , surely not .
    Offensive....... Are you being serious?

    I think Alpa cameras are wonderful bits of kit but any Schneider WA lens owner must be quite dissatisfied with this adapter following months of speculation.

    Judging by your reaction, here sometimes lies the problem with Alpa cameras and the point Yair puts so well is that many are sold because of the badge. Removing my rose tinted specks, in this case the adapter falls well short of my expectations.

    This is a discussion for once not about a blasted D800. If we all get on nice, there is no reason for it not to continue with some light hearted and healty disagreement. After all, that's why I enjoy participating in this forum and a Alpa love in would just be dull IMO.
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    You guys can poke fun at ALPA all you like. I have owned a few Arca Swiss cameras and they are very useful, but never as SEXY as an ALPA.
    Aesthetically..... very true!

    However, when discussing the Arca R cameras I consider them to be a masterpiece of engineering and unrivalled in that respect.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    You guys can poke fun at ALPA all you like. I have owned a few Arca Swiss cameras and they are very useful, but never as SEXY as an ALPA.
    Sexy is just, well sexy. I'd love to have an Alpa!

    I'd change the slogan to, "It's Sexy on Top."


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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Offensive....... Are you being serious?

    I think Alpa cameras are wonderful bits of kit but any Schneider WA lens owner must be quite dissatisfied with this adapter following months of speculation.

    Judging by your reaction, here sometimes lies the problem with Alpa cameras and the point Yair puts so well is that many are sold because of the badge. Removing my rose tinted specks, in this case the adapter falls well short of my expectations.

    This is a discussion for once not about a blasted D800. If we all get on nice, there is no reason for it not to continue with some light hearted and healty disagreement. After all, that's why I enjoy participating in this forum and a Alpa love in would just be dull IMO.
    Moderator Warning

    Lets be sensitive to those out there who have a different opinion.
    Behavior here should be at the level one might expect at a dinner party or in your own living room.
    I have been watching this thread and I think that it is bordering on the unacceptable. I have also received complaints.
    So please gentlemen, some prefer Scotch, some bourbon and that is fine, so lets not get insulting about other's tastes.
    thanks
    -bob

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Aesthetically..... very true!

    However, when discussing the Arca R cameras I consider them to be a masterpiece of engineering and unrivalled in that respect.
    Yes, Arca cameras are engineered very well, but aesthetically I find the "R" series not appealing and when I gave the "R" a serious look at, I realized I would be paying for things I would not need. When you buy into the "R" series, you buy the entire package. You have more customization options with ALPA.

    For example, I do not want or need all the numbers written on my lenses (i.e., ALPA HFA Rings, Arca lens mount) as I know where the focus spots are on my lenses from testing, so I prefer a very simple camera design. I know a lot of photographers want to use Distos and use the numbers for absolute precision; me, I prefer using a minimum amount of lenses and will stick to those lenses for years and know where the sweet spots are.

    I think for me at least the big difference I see between these two cameras is the Arca "R" is all beefed up for the photographer that likes all the techie stuff and with ALPA if you want all the techie stuff you have the option to add it or not. I have always preferred the simplest design in my equipment.

    It has always been about content for me and not playing with gear--but, I understand and APPRECIATE the photographers that do love the gear and give it a workout. I read their reviews and study their work and this is how I get the best education on gear.

    I would be lost without this forum and all the contributors that have something worthwhile to say: technically and photographically!
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    If you are looking for simple, there is always the TC.
    Me, I am not sure I want bells and whistles, but the key ingredient in my mind for justification of a tech camera is Tilts.
    -bob

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    Re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Feel free to make any corrections, or to add other pancake platforms to the list.
    Hartblei HCam
    - Utilises tilt/swing/shift of available lenses
    - Widest, Canon 17mm TS-E
    - Tilt and swing can be applied simultaneously (axis on which the lens tilts can be rotated)

    OK, so it's a bit of a fat pancake, I'll grant you that
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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    I can live without tilt, but I cannot live without the ability to use a ground glass if needed and lens selection.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    I can live without tilt, but I cannot live without the ability to use a ground glass if needed and lens selection.
    Yes indeed, different folks have different use-cases.
    -bob
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    The new adapter seems to fit the leaked description of capabilities hinted at over time.

    Initially I was told Rodenstock only - that makes sense due to the 17mm minimum spacing between the lens & sensor which necessitates retro-focus wides - i.e. Rodies.

    Support for Schneider glass - the newer mounts for Schneiders wider than 80mm would fit that rumor too. Just not 47, 35 or wider (see above). That's a bummer but I understand why.

    Engineering the 17mm spacer might look like a trivial undertaking but if you've ever seen the machining, baffles and precision build of the existing adapter, not to mention the rest of the camera, you start to understand why it isn't something you fabricate up overnight. John Milich (JLM) here can no doubt attest to this fact since that's his field. What looks simple and elegant (whether you like it or not or think it's from the school of meccano), takes a lot of careful design for a production piece.

    If you've never used an Alpa and pick one up you'll realize that these are precision made cameras from the NASA school of engineering, not the artisan wooden large format school of camera building. I think that Alpa is somewhat too proud of their stuff at times and charge a premium for it - however, I shoot Alpa because I very much appreciate the quality of workmanship, the tactility of the system and the knowledge that it is me screwing things up, not the camera. (Per Darr's description earlier too - you get what you need and can add bells & whistles if you need them).

    Yes, I'm a fan. No I don't like the nose bleed pricing. Yes I do understand the engineering approach taken by Alpa to extend the system. Sure I wish it were like Yair described with the best of all worlds but I suspect that we'll have to wait and see on that front. However, the tilt adapter with lenses up to 32mm looks like a very practical system. I wish my Schneider wides would magically work too but that rear element -> sensor distance isn't going to fit - at least with this body & adapter design.

    Damn, time to save up ... again!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Yes, Arca cameras are engineered very well, but aesthetically I find the "R" series not appealing and when I gave the "R" a serious look at, I realized I would be paying for things I would not need. When you buy into the "R" series, you buy the entire package. You have more customization options with ALPA.
    My wife refers to the Arca R as a robot cam as it reminds her of the face of a robot from a TV program she watched as a child.

    I do agree we have different tastes and possibly I am a techie camera geek as I much prefer the fact everything is built into the R camera body. I always found it unforgivable that Alpa manufactured a big old camera in the MAX but found it acceptable to only offer either rise/fall or shift on the standard camera. The only way to get both was to add another accessory (stitch adapter) to the camera to get it to work as most normally use a tech camera. Just seems short sighted (or greedy) to asked people to continually buy bits to get it to function as it should do in the first place.

    Its great the adapter has been released and shows Alpa listens to its customers requests but the Meccano sales model just bothers me.

  24. #24
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    My wife refers to the Arca R as a robot cam as it reminds her of the face of a robot from a TV program she watched as a child.

    I think I see some similarities.

    I do agree we have different tastes and possibly I am a techie camera geek as I much prefer the fact everything is built into the R camera body. I always found it unforgivable that Alpa manufactured a big old camera in the MAX but found it acceptable to only offer either rise/fall or shift on the standard camera. The only way to get both was to add another accessory (stitch adapter) to the camera to get it to work as most normally use a tech camera. Just seems short sighted (or greedy) to asked people to continually buy bits to get it to function as it should do in the first place.
    I understand how you would think that, but I do not know if it was an afterthought after the initial design or if it was their initial design with it being a more customizable system. I use the MAX and since I came from the 4x5" camera, I wanted the movements (we get use to our comfort zones). I do not know enough about the ALPA line history to call it an old design or not, but the MAX is an easy camera to operate. I use to say my camera was just a box, now I feel like it is a slice of light-weight metal with gliding movements and a lens.

    Its great the adapter has been released and shows Alpa listens to its customers requests but the Meccano sales model just bothers me.
    Yes, for some ALPA users it is good news, although I will not be buying it. Is the MECCANO sales model the "Erector Set" they sell here in the states? If so, I guess that is one of the reasons I decided to stay with ALPA; for the ability to choose how to dress up the box.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Is the MECCANO sales model the "Erector Set" they sell here in the states?
    Yes sorry, I thought it was an international product name.

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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    You seem to be very proud of your totally overdriven sarcasm which is entirely
    inappropriate here and almost an offence .
    Is that the way a discussion should be here in the forum ? No , surely not .
    Gotta say I think you've taken the original comments the wrong way - they were light hearted and not intended to offend, I'm sure.

    Probably just a case of the essence of what was being said getting lost in translation. I don't believe there was anything sarcastic said - and even if there was, when Brits use sarcasm, it's almost always for comic effect.

    My opinion on the Alpa tilt adapter: Er, no thanks.

    Having some engineering skills myself, I'd say it's not impossible to use with the Schneiders, if Alpa would produce some recessed boards with modified focussing rings (all depends on how close the rear element needs to be to the sensor at infinity of course, on a lens-by-lens basis).

    By the way, heard a rumour that Schneider will be bringing out a retrofocus wide angle at Photokina.

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Well, this may have pushed me over the edge with my 43xl. I really like the lens because of it's size & weight. But now I think the 40hr is the better option. May end up putting the 43 up for sale.

    This solution is about what I expected. It does bum me out a little that I feel a bit squeezed into Rodi. Nothing wrong with Rodis, I have the 70 and the 100 and like them both very much. I just like having options, and I don't want to buy big heavy wides.

    All that being said, I am quite happy Alpa came up with a solution. Here's to that!

    Ciao,
    Dave

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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Dave - maybe wait it out till Photokina. I do not think we have heard the whole story here. I too am a bit disappointed that there are no immediate solutions for wide SK lenses, but the announcement today was pretty much what was expected: tilt/swing for the Rodie lenses. That some of the SK mid-range lens also benefit from this is good. But again, there are more things coming I'm told.....

    Cheers, -Peter

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    Doug,
    One other point that might matter to some: The Alpa option can tilt or swing either the back or the lens.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    With Alpa updating their tilt-swing offerings it seems a good time to get an updated survey of the pancake Tilt Shift options out there.

    Cambo Tilt and Swing:
    - requires lens retrofit into TS mount
    - widest Schneider: 43mm
    - widest Rodenstock: 28mm
    - tilt and swing can be applied simultaneously

    Arca Tilt and Swing:
    - built into body, every lens works without retrofit
    - widest Schneider: 24mm (all)
    - widest Rodenstock: 23mm (all)
    - tilt, or swing, not both at the same time

    Alpa Tilt and Swing:
    - requires lens retrofit, and separate adapter
    - widest Schneider: 60mm
    - widest Rodenstock: 32mm
    - tilt, or swing, not both at the same time

    Feel free to make any corrections, or to add other pancake platforms to the list.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Dave - maybe wait it out till Photokina. I do not think we have heard the whole story here. I too am a bit disappointed that there are no immediate solutions for wide SK lenses, but the announcement today was pretty much what was expected: tilt/swing for the Rodie lenses. That some of the SK mid-range lens also benefit from this is good. But again, there are more things coming I'm told.....

    Cheers, -Peter
    Have to agree with Dave and Peter here, looks nice just wish the SK wides are not getting left out on this solution but given the IQ 180 for example than Rodie is about the only choice for wide angle , now this. The good news it just may puch Schneider to make some needed changes to there lens lineup.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Alpa tilt swing adapter

    Gerald

    we are not fat......, this is just a bit wide in the hips, a camera for grownups -not the Asia tiny mini style...........

    Greetings from Kiev
    Stefan

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Hartblei HCam
    - Utilises tilt/swing/shift of available lenses
    - Widest, Canon 17mm TS-E
    - Tilt and swing can be applied simultaneously (axis on which the lens tilts can be rotated)

    OK, so it's a bit of a fat pancake, I'll grant you that
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: ALPA tilt swing adapter

    EXCELLENT NEWS! That means I can retrofit my SK 72 L with five degrees tilt/swing. Love it
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

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