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Thread: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

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    IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Q: Are you a pro, a dealer, or trying to sell your gear at a higher price?

    A: None of the above. I am a tech geek, and by being honest to reveal all drawbacks I even risk selling my gear for less should I need to sell in the future. For such reason, dealers tend to hate me.

    Q: Why CMOS?

    A: Because:

    a) Currently only the Sony CMOS (H5D-50C, H5D-200CMS, CFV-50C, IQ250, IQ150, Credo50, 645Z) can match up against the Nikon D800E / Sony A7R in terms of dynamic range. At pixel peeping level for high contrast scenes, the IQ280 and the IQ260 gets inferior image quality in the shadow when compared against the Nikon D800E / Sony A7R. If you are used to Canon you may not appreciate the Sony CMOS, but if you are used to Nikon / Sony you would definitely like the Sony CMOS!

    b) Live View is usable in both bright and dark conditions for critical focus and composition without harassment.

    c) The fab process of the Sony CMOS is mature enough to avoid tiling issues.

    d) The Sony CMOS can turn off darkframe NR for long exposure shots with virtually no impact on image quality, allowing twice the chance to capture great light during sunset / sunrise when compared against all CCD sensors.

    e) Higher usable ISO means handheld shots would be possible under certain situations.

    Q: I am a fan of larger sensors. Why should I bother with a small crop sensor?

    A: I am not persuading you to buy the small crop sensor, but you may find useful information here to predict what would happen if a fullframe 645 CMOS sensor is ready - what would happen to the current Rodenstock HR Digaron lenses?

    Q: Canon has announced their 50 MP 5DSR. Why should I bother with something like an IQ250?

    A: If you stitch by movements with the IQ250 you get the same / similar pixel count as if you stitch with the IQ280 (i.e. in the >100 MP territory). It is not easy to do parallax free stitching with a Canon TS-E lens. According to the dpreview interview the 5DSR would perform similarly as the previous Canon sensors in terms of dynamic range and SNR. The Rodenstock HR lenses also perform at levels higher than or equal to the Zeiss Otus lenses, especially for wide angles. It is also easier to sort out filters for the 23HR, 32HR and 40HR than for the Canon 17mm f/4 L TS-E lens when you need perspective control by movements for long exposure shots (the Fotodiox filter is a huge monster to carry around).

    Q: Why don't you spent more time taking real pictures rather than testing gear?

    A: While I do shoot a few images I am not a pro. I am a gearhead and I enjoy the process of pursuing ultimate image quality, as well as shooting something that the others cannot easily shoot due to gear constraints. The process of experiments and discovery is fun, and the advancement of technology is exciting!

    ################################################## ##############################

    Lenses tested this time (courtesy of Linhof & Studio!):

    Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 23 mm f/5,6 (on ALPA 12 MAX with centerfilter)
    Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 32 mm f/4 (on Linhof Techno)
    Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 40 mm f/4 (on ALPA 12 MAX)
    Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 70 mm f/5,6 (on Linhof Techno)
    Rodenstock HR Digaron-SW 90 mm f/5,6 (on Linhof Techno)







    ################################################## ##############################

    First of all here are the blue sky desaturation tests (white balance: Daylight, Kelvin 5000, Tint 0; highlight -33, shadow +33):




    I would say that the desaturation does not bother me at all. Within the manufacturer specified image circle all lenses seem to hold strong and if there is any observed desaturation personally I would just fix it in post processing with a few mouse clicks. It may not be suitable if you do scientific images and color fidelity is critical, but for landscape work I would assume it to be OK. The wide angles seem to have a bit of desaturation in the corners when shifted. The 70HR-W seems to have some uncorrected magenta cast when shifted to the extreme. The 90HR-SW can do well even without LCC!

    ################################################## ##############################

    Secondly, here are the mazing artifacts tests:

    What are mazing artifacts and when does it happen for the Sony CMOS sensor? According to my experience to date (at the time of writing all LCC were done with Capture One v8.1), they most likely only occur when you shoot interior and there is a white wall (or other high key / simple texture) right within the region where the LCC shot has the purple-blue cast. It can be observed if you do pixel peeping at 100% pixel level. I have never observed such problem when I shoot outdoors (e.g. the blue sky). Below is so far the most stressful stress test that I can find for this phenomena:



    How do movements affect these mazing artifacts? Below shows that movements along the longer edge of the Sony CMOS sensor do not affect the amount of mazing artifacts. (Actually later you would see that only movements along the shorter edge of the Sony CMOS sensor would have an impact):



    So, what's the safe range of movements along the longer edge of the Sony CMOS sensor to avoid these mazing artifacts? Here are the tests results of the wide angles and you could evaluate the usable image circle using Digital Transitions' Tech Camera Visualization Tools by yourself:













    Personally I would say that the safe range of rise (i.e. fall of IQ250 back for landscape orientation) is 6mm for the 23HR, 12mm for the 32HR and 16mm for the 40HR if you are picky with interior shots. However, the mazing artifacts on the 32HR are not prominent and it might even be usable beyond 16mm rise.

    The 23HR on the IQ250 is like 17mm equivalent as of the 35mm format, which is even a bit wider than the 32HR on the IQ260. It is still the widest solution for long exposure shots with perspective control by movements without having to carry huge monstrous Fotodiox filters.

    The 32HR on the IQ250 does not really need a centerfilter desperately as the dynamic range of the Sony CMOS sensor is really impressive. The lens is a beast and may continue to hold strong value if the fullframe 645 CMOS sensor is going to be based on the same technology as of the IQ250. (We do not consider the microlens array offset yet.) The only possible drawback is the mazing artifact issue if one is picky, but hopefully future software would be able to better compensate for this.

    The 40HR on the IQ250 performs strongly and is versatile. If you own the 23HR then the 40HR is a great complementary. Personally I would assume it to be a safer bet for future fullframe 645 CMOS sensors.

    The 70HR is sharp in the center (on par with the 90HR-SW) but the image quality degrades with movements towards the edge of the image circle and needs to be stopped down. Also it has color casts on the IQ250 when moved to the extreme. However given the size, weight and price I would still say it is a very reasonable choice!

    The 90HR-SW is perhaps the new standard. It's a beasty lens as the 32HR. It has virtually no color cast on the Sony CMOS sensor as I was unable to hit the edge of the image circle with a crop sensor given the range of movements offered by the camera body. You can't go wrong with it except that it is bigger in size, heavier and more expensive than the 70HR.

    So, what to expect next? Wide angles and sensor performance have been spear and shield for long. Symmetric design of wide angles is surely appreciated but for a sensor to achieve better dynamic range and high ISO performance there is a compromise that the lightwell has to be deep and the light shield has to be short, hence making the sensor more susceptible to crosstalk issues (color casts and mazing artifacts). Crosstalk is just one of the very many (digital) optical defect such like vignetting, MTF degradation towards the edge, distortion, chromatic aberration etc. With the Sony CMOS sensor you lose a bit of color or movement range but you gain the dynamic range, SNR etc, and when compared against the Canon / Nikon tilt-shift glasses you gain resolution as well (i.e. corner sharpness). Personally I would assume that this Sony CMOS + Rodenstock HR setup is of least compromise for landscape shots. For interior shots or other applications you might still prefer the larger CCD sensors for a generation or so.

    The Samsung NX1 has introduced the first APSC back-illuminated CMOS sensor which is ray-angle friendly but I would assume it to be unable to achieve the same dynamic range as the Sony CMOS sensors do. This is one route for the 645 fullframe CMOS sensor (wide angle friendly, but less DR and SNR).

    The D7000, D800E, A7R, IQ250 (similar Sony IMX094 sensor tech) tech is another route for a 80 MP 645 fullframe CMOS sensor (similar wide angle compatibility as tested this time, but great DR and SNR).

    The NEX7, D5300, A7R-II tech is another route for a 120 MP 645 fullframe CMOS sensor (great DR and SNR, but will probably be incompatible with all current ultra wide angles).
    Last edited by voidshatter; 7th February 2015 at 18:01.
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    This is excellent work and super helpful for anyone looking at the applicability of the CMOS sensor with the Rodies.

    I'm going this route myself and it's really helpful to see the performance of the 23 & 40mm lenses with movements with these backs.

    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    It would be very interesting to see how C1 with the IQ150/250 and Credo 50 series compares to Phocus and the 50c when it comes to LCC / scene calibration and the reduction or suppression of mazing artefacts. I'm very, very happy to see your results with the 32HR and 40HR. Goes to show the advantage of retrofocus lenses on the CMOS.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Voidshatter:

    Great work, Any chance to link to the full size crops? or tests? It would be nice to see them in a larger view.

    I apologize if I missed a link.

    Thanks
    Paul
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Fantastic stuff Void.

    This is extremely useful information for anyone looking at taking on the CMOS sensors. Very well done, good information and thorough testing.

    Pity all my wides are SK, but I can't afford one of these backs anyway
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Tremendous work. Well done!

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Brilliant post - hugely useful - thank you.

    Why, oh why, don't the DB manufacturer's themselves produce stuff like this...

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Because they want the dealers to work for their money? That's one way to keep prices high, I guess...

    I would have thought that the technical camera manufacturers AND dealers would be the ones posting these kinds of thorough tests, actually. DT has posted the most thorough, although nothing as useful as this IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    Brilliant post - hugely useful - thank you.

    Why, oh why, don't the DB manufacturer's themselves produce stuff like this...

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    To be fair, maybe they've got more important things to do - like designing the packaging of the corporate candy for instance:

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    To be fair, do you really believe that Phase One/Leaf don't do these tests?
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    I would prefer to think they don't than they do ... but choose not to publish. Remember the consternation when the IQ180 was released and everyone who had invested in S/K wide angles suddenly found out that the DB they had just upgraded to didn't play ball ? Nothing on the P1 website at launch informed potential buyers of this issue, so if they did testing and kept it to themselves, well...

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    An exhaustive set of tests proving what has been known almost from day one. The new CMOS sensors don't play well with shifted lenses on tech cams. The reps from CI and DT have been very forthcoming with this on this forum and with their customers. As for Phase One's failure to "disclose" this, I don't fault Phase One for advertising what their DB's can do rather than what they can't do.
    Last edited by fmueller; 8th February 2015 at 13:28.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Just a bit of a different opinion.

    No offense intended, but where are those exhaustive tests? Can you point to them. I have followed the 250 pretty darn close since the day it was announced. The only "tests" I know of are the ones by DT, back in Feb of 2014. I was all over those tests, and spend months going over the various files. If there are others I am remiss and would like to see them.

    The DT tests were indoors, in poor light and IMO did not really give a great showing of any of the sensors involved, besides showing that the 250 greatly outperformed the other CCD sensors in shadow DR.

    The only other true outdoor testing I know of was on this site, the review that Guy did of the Credo 50, and that did show a lot I will agree, but I still don't feel it's exhaustive. Guy did give anyone the ability to pull the raw files down, with no "if you are a client" restrictions.

    As for Phase One, I don't agree that they have provided anything, they have left it up to the various dealers to provide testing. I know of no link on Phase One's site showing really anything of significant information besides just basic marketing info and that. They may have tested internally sure, but nothing I know of has been published for the general public.

    I know of no landscape shooter who has been sponsored by Phase One to shoot extensively with the 50MP chip, with either a tech camera solution or DF and Phase One glass. There has been some information posted on weddings, and action shooters, on the Phase site with the 250. At the time I checked Joe Cornish is still using the 260, but that might have changed. Joe has been greatly published by Phase One with his work on the 260.

    Some other examples that I find very lacking:
    1. The wealth of information that other members on this site have provided on ways to tether with the Surface pro, in the field. This vastly improved the usability of the current CCD backs and the CMOS ones. This is a huge advantage for Phase One over the competition, yet, nothing has ever been officially published.
    2. The fact that the use of a strong Variable ND filter GREATLY improved the use the live view on the current CCD backs. I can't impress enough just how much better Live View is with this solution. It works and works well, outdoors and in bright light. Again nothing from Phase One.

    As far as getting a 50MP back to test, one of the most common responses by the dealers is "demo" the back. That is not that easy due to insurance issues. I have been able to demo every other camera and lens I have needed, except Medium Format backs.

    Travel to NYC and or Atlanta is not really a good solution either as I would rather demo the back in my photographic subject matter.

    Lensrentals.com has greatly improved over the past 2 years and it would be great to see a similar solution for MFD. I am a single shop owner, I work out of my home and don't have a separate building, so getting rental insurance for my business is in the 2K range and just too much for 5 days of use. It's also too costly to change my insurance to another carrier due to the rest of the coverage I have. That may just be my issue, but I feel that the back rental is very hard to do and there should be a better solution.

    As far as I know of the crops that Voidshatter provided are the first real test to show just how well the Rodenstock lens solutions will work on the 50MP CMOS. They were outdoors, in good light with blue skies. Blue skies tend to be the worst offenders on the hue and color shift issues, at least from my work. What I have seen from his work is that with moderate shifting, 12mm to 15mm with the Rodenstock glass, the 50MP CMOS is viable. If you can live with the cropped view, which is still a big consideration for me. However based on his results, I can now see a lot more possibilities for this sensor.

    The images that Darr posted about a month ago, also pointed to the fact that the 50MP CMOS backs may not be as hard on tech shifts as was once thought. She was also willing to share those raw files.

    Paul
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    I don't see Phase One as trying to "hide the ball" from anyone. Imho, it's all part and parcel of chasing technology and upgrading to the latest and greatest offerings. I truly doubt you'll hear from Canon advising consumers that save for their "L glass" series of lenses (and a smattering of offerings from third parties like Zeiss that their other lenses probably aren't the best choice for their new 50MP 5Ds/r....

    And at the same time, if Phase One ever did offer up some sort of "definitive test" it would be received with an eye towards bias/marketing. Really. So here the independent dealer network, at least those that have credibility behind them, does provide some insights on equipment, performance, and perhaps a combination of platforms and digital back solutions/recommendations based on individual needs/wants/desires. And of course, individual user reports from the small growing GetDPI family help.

    Because of the subjective nature involved in user needs/wants/desires, it's hard to beat personal experience. In other words, a "test" posted on the forums may not necessarily form an accurate conclusion for every user. I guess you'd call that a statistical hasty generalization.

    Events like CI in Carmel are great ways to try new equipment. I wish there were more of these types of events. We're looking forward to Lake Tahoe...

    ken

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    I guess it would depend on how big the tech camera market is in regards to Phase One sales.

    I think if the majority of sales are aimed at the DF+ bodies and lenses, then movements become less of an issue for them. I would bet the IQ250 works wonders on the DF+. So long as the Phase One products work with Phase One gear then their job is really done. If you want to use the Phase One product on another platform, then you will need to test it out to make sure it works with the equipment you have.

    No worries.
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    As far as getting a 50MP back to test, one of the most common responses by the dealers is "demo" the back. That is not that easy due to insurance issues. I have been able to demo every other camera and lens I have needed, except Medium Format backs.

    Travel to NYC and or Atlanta is not really a good solution either as I would rather demo the back in my photographic subject matter.

    Lensrentals.com has greatly improved over the past 2 years and it would be great to see a similar solution for MFD. I am a single shop owner, I work out of my home and don't have a separate building, so getting rental insurance for my business is in the 2K range and just too much for 5 days of use. It's also too costly to change my insurance to another carrier due to the rest of the coverage I have. That may just be my issue, but I feel that the back rental is very hard to do and there should be a better solution.
    Paul, did you look into APA Insurance. I personally use them for the Camera Equipment Insurance that I use, and it costs me about $450 a year (plus the very reasonable price of being an APA member) and covers 40k of rental equipment at a $500 deductible. Here's my agent - I've never had to make a claim, but they've been professional and efficient any time I've needed them. Karen Stetz, Agent, APA Insurance Services, Phone: 877.269.9021
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Doug. Thanks for the tip. I will check them out tomorrow.

    Paul

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    VoidShatter: Great tests; thanks for sharing. Having run dozens of digital backs tests in the last 8 years, including this IQ250 Tech Cam Test) I'm especially sensitive to criticizing someone else's tests. Moreover, this test looks very well organized and especially well executed! That said, there are a few items to consider when interpreting the results, which I hope you'll accept in the spirit it is intended; it's also very likely you're aware of the below, but (unless I missed it) they are not discussed in your report and so someone only reading your report may miss them. Your effort in such testing is greatly appreciated and a great contribution to the Phase One community!
    - The color desaturation issue is not equal for all colors. Magenta colors in areas of green-cast and green colors in areas of magenta-cast are especially affected. It's also not just strictly a desaturation issue but also reduces the ability to see subtle variations of color (though in my experience the desaturation becomes problematic before the loss of color discrimination for most subjects). So with other subject matter it may become apparent prior to where it shows in your testing. Naturally if you are shooting for B+W you can go much further.
    - The cause of Mazing in larger movements is pretty complicated. It's not absolutely limited to smooth areas of tone, it can absolutely happen outside (it has in other tests we've run; remember that I shoot many GB of tests and personal shooting that never get formalized into a research report) and subject matter does matter, so in worst-case scenarios it could kick in a few mm of movement less than it has in your testing. Naturally the opposite can also be true!
    - As shown in our Tech Cam testing the 250 can be used very effectively, including with movement, on a variety of Rodenstock lenses; however, notable to some users, the IQ260 (or IQ160 or P65+) and other backs/sensors are usable for a larger set of movements on those lenses. The IQ250 has a LOT to offer tech camera users, but if you are, for instance, a pro interior/architecture shooter who finds their back ever-against-the-wall and want to be able to get the most movement out wide angles (including Rodenstock) it's important to be aware of that.

    Frankly - we don't care which one of these backs someone buys . But we do care about happy customers and invest heavily in the research/testing/real-world-shooting to provide advice about the pros/cons of each option to help facilitate them.

    You can imagine a LOT depends on the photographer as to how these sorts of results should be interpreted. If I'm working with a pro interior shooter who isn't interested in a in-the-weeds level of technical knowledge I'm going to be reticent to recommend a combo that can result in mazing which can easily go unnoticed unless each image is reviewed at 100% - that could ruin a production and cause grievous damage to their career (I don't think I'm exaggerating here, even if it's a worst-case scenario). If I'm dealing with an hobbyist-landscaper for whom a minor amount of mazing in the corner of a frame might be viewed as a minor annoyance (a bit of Photoshop cloning and voila) that same issue could be inconsequential compared to the ease of learning tech-camera focus/composition with the IQ250 Live View.

    ---

    As a comment on Phase One providing such testing... Phase One has always relied on their network of Value Added Partners (aka dealers) to provide potential buyers the resources they need regardless of what specific and/or niche needs they might have or non-Phase gear they want to use a back with. We at DT attempt to do a good job of this by providing our clients access to raw files from our extensive catalog of testing, advice from that testing and our non-test real-world-shooting and the experience of our other clients, as well as the opportunity to test/evaluate equipment at our facilities or via a rental-toward-purchase. We also try to participate as much as possible in forums like this, both to share what we know, and to learn from the other users. For instance when tests like this one are published we point users to them to supplement our own testing.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    so in worst-case scenarios it could kick in a few mm of movement less than it has in your testing
    Thanks for the notes Doug!

    Would you mind sharing RAW files (or PM me a link) of an example in which the mazing artifact occurred outside the blue-cast region of the LCC shot?

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    As a comment on Phase One providing such testing... Phase One has always relied on their network of Value Added Partners (aka dealers) to provide potential buyers the resources they need regardless of what specific and/or niche needs they might have or non-Phase gear they want to use a back with...
    For that to work you have to have great dealer. Sadly, US representation is not representative of the global Phase One dealership network. Elsewhere it's either non-existent, or takes the form of a ‘one man band'. With respect to the latter - the dealer is simply not going to be able to perform the sort of testing required because: 1) they don’t have the time, and/or 2) they don't have access to the lenses/equipment required.

    This is why - IMO - testing needs to be done locally (Phase One HQ), and the results distributed globally for inspection and discussion.
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Mazing occurs because the demosaicer expects green 1 and green 2 to be the same on a uniform surface, but due to crosstalk they separate and then the demosaicer starts to make up detail. The greens differs because one of the greens get most it leaks from the neighboring red and the other from the blue. Of course if you're lucky and the color you're shooting has equal red and blue content (on the raw level), green1&2 will not separate.

    As Doug says it's not only about desaturation and mazing, crosstalk means that you have mixing of color channels and thus worse color separation. Degradation in color separation can be really hard to see, but if you're in medium format because of color-optimized CFA and other subtle advantages in terms of color you should think twice before wasting that advantage by mixing the channels with crosstalk.

    If you want to it's really easy to take away the mazing, you just equalize the green channels. Lumariver HDR does this, and you can do it with the green equiliberation feature in RawTherapee. It's probably only a matter of time before Phase One implements it in Capture One. On the other hand mazing is a good "health indicator" meaning that you're pushing the sensor too far. If you're making a monochrome shot it will work out though.

    I agree that Phase One, Hassy etc should make a thorough test of tech lenses inhouse and make the results publically available for all dealers and users to see. It's a better model than leaving it to a few select dealers and laymen. You may need to have inside information to make the tests correctly, for example with the Sony sensor it was unknown for a long time if it had offset microlenses or not (it has), which affects how the tests should be performed.
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Mazing occurs because the demosaicer expects green 1 and green 2 to be the same on a uniform surface, but due to crosstalk they separate and then the demosaicer starts to make up detail. The greens differs because one of the greens get most it leaks from the neighboring red and the other from the blue. Of course if you're lucky and the color you're shooting has equal red and blue content (on the raw level), green1&2 will not separate.

    As Doug says it's not only about desaturation and mazing, crosstalk means that you have mixing of color channels and thus worse color separation. Degradation in color separation can be really hard to see, but if you're in medium format because of color-optimized CFA and other subtle advantages in terms of color you should think twice before wasting that advantage by mixing the channels with crosstalk.

    If you want to it's really easy to take away the mazing, you just equalize the green channels. Lumariver HDR does this, and you can do it with the green equiliberation feature in RawTherapee. It's probably only a matter of time before Phase One implements it in Capture One. On the other hand mazing is a good "health indicator" meaning that you're pushing the sensor too far. If you're making a monochrome shot it will work out though.

    I agree that Phase One, Hassy etc should make a thorough test of tech lenses inhouse and make the results publically available for all dealers and users to see. It's a better model than leaving it to a few select dealers and laymen. You may need to have inside information to make the tests correctly, for example with the Sony sensor it was unknown for a long time if it had offset microlenses or not (it has), which affects how the tests should be performed.
    Hopefully if a full frame CMOS comes in the future, Phase One can work out a new software algorithim to help with these issues. I would hope that they are working on it now. I would hope that they either purchase the rights to the development that has already been down by your company, or they make their own software fix. As it seems this full frame is a year or so away, maybe they can make changes to effect the current 50MP CMOS. Of course as Phase is a very closed company, it's hard to know if they even agree that mazing is an issue and even if it exists.

    Paul

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Now that's what I call a camera test. Great work Voidshatter.
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    I will say that mazing is quite easy to see on the DT library test, so it's not only a big problem on flat subjects. With the test shots that Darr kindly shared, it's also visable, particularly after 10mm of horozontal shift.
    I keep flip flopping between wanting to buy the 50c and CCD 50 Hasselblad, and these tests are brilliant in helping me understand what I could expect in terms of performance. Thanks!
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    I will say that mazing is quite easy to see on the DT library test, so it's not only a big problem on flat subjects. With the test shots that Darr kindly shared, it's also visable, particularly after 10mm of horozontal shift.
    I keep flip flopping between wanting to buy the 50c and CCD 50 Hasselblad, and these tests are brilliant in helping me understand what I could expect in terms of performance. Thanks!
    I have just quickly checked the Rodenstock RAW files provided by the DT test (i.e. the library interior shot) and within my suggested amount of movement I did not observe any mazing (if I did not miss it). Could you please point out where you observe mazing within the movement range I specified?

    Also I downloaded the RAW files provided by Darr but I am still not sure where the mazing is (and I thought it was not Rodenstock but Schneider if I remember correctly?). Could you point out which part of which file you cropped?





    I still stand by my hypothesis that for the Rodenstock wide angles the worst case for mazing is only the blue part in the LCC shot, and is only affected by movements along the shorter edge of the sensor. If you refrain movements beyond the range I suggested in that direction then there should be no mazing. I proposed this hypothesis by systematical testings and I am yet to see Doug providing a counterexample.
    Last edited by voidshatter; 9th February 2015 at 14:26.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Here are the library test shots for the 40HR. Again, mazing only happens when movements along the shorter edge of the sensor exceeds my suggested range.


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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    The mazing I saw is not multi coloured like what you have highlighted above, rather presents itself quite obvious (to me, at least) and strange maze like patterns.
    I posted examples here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/621422-post90.html
    Perhaps I'm being too picky?

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    The mazing I saw is not multi coloured like what you have highlighted above, rather presents itself quite obvious (to me, at least) and strange maze like patterns.
    I posted examples here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/621422-post90.html
    Perhaps I'm being too picky?
    From the screenshots you posted:

    a) The mazing on the 32HR comes from a stitched JPEG, and that area comes from an exposure with movement exceeding my suggested range, i.e. it's from the 30mm rise one. I have posted above showing you that if you use 15mm rise you will never get that mazing there. (Same crop position as yours: see #25 of this thread)

    b) The 47XL picture was taken by a Schneider lens and I cannot comment on that.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    This is below the 15mm shift line.
    I know it's at 200% magnification, but for some reason I can't attach screen grabs and have them show bigger than a thumbnail... I had to downsample to 1200px wide...
    Anyway, I find the strange maze like pattern in the flat(it) areas of tone disturbing. It's most evident in the mid brown wood tone, but also shows up in what looks like false / overly jagged edges around details.
    Maybe someone could tell me what I'm looking at and if it's related to the more crazy mazing that can be seen in other areas of the stitch?

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    This is below the 15mm shift line.
    I know it's at 200% magnification, but for some reason I can't attach screen grabs and have them show bigger than a thumbnail... I had to downsample to 1200px wide...
    Anyway, I find the strange maze like pattern in the flat(it) areas of tone disturbing. It's most evident in the mid brown wood tone, but also shows up in what looks like false / overly jagged edges around details.
    Maybe someone could tell me what I'm looking at and if it's related to the more crazy mazing that can be seen in other areas of the stitch?
    You still did not get my point. You are looking into a JPEG file, and the JPEG file is a stitched file. The cropped part you are looking at 200% is actually from a RAW file taken when the lens was shifted 30mm upwards even though it's below the 15mm line. Doug did not have prior knowledge of this mazing artifact when he stitched the JPEG file.

    You would need to download Doug's RAW files, and look into the RAW file taken when the lens was shifted 15mm upwards. It would still cover the area of your interest (as I posted in #25 of this thread) and you will not be able to see such mazing artifact there (on the same subject in that library, but in a different position in the exposure as the movement was different).

    If Doug knew this mazing artifact well, then he would have chosen to stitch from the 15mm-movement images. He could still achieve the same stitch if he shoot with the back in portrait direction when he does fall of the back to shoot towards the ceiling. (This is just a hack / workaround for the mazing artifact because the sensor would only give mazing when movement along the shorter edge of the sensor exceeds a certain amount.)

    Below shows the hack to avoid mazing and to achieve the same stitch: I had to borrow the IQ140 to illustrate the portrait movements as well, but take all these 4 overlapping rectangles as IQ250s. In such way the sensor movement would never break the rule that the movement along the shorter edge of the sensor should not exceed 15mm (actually, 12mm to be conservative for the 32HR as suggested in the OP). This would work to avoid mazing if my hypothesis is true.

    Last edited by voidshatter; 9th February 2015 at 23:09.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I've tried multiple times to download the RAW files, but it seems the DT server (or the link to my country, more like) is so slow that I leave it downloading all night and don't get half way though one file!
    Regardless, what you say makes sense and is very heartening. I'm hoping to get the go ahead to buy an H5D50c kit this week at work, so I guess I'll know for myself soon enough.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    PS: Next time you're in contact with Paula at Linhof Studio, and if you're interested, it'd be good to shoot the same shots on the CFV-50c she has to demo and your IQ250. I'm really interested to see if Phocus and C1 are equal with regards to mazing.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    There's an additional type of artifact which I have just recently become aware of, vertical banding similar to microlens ripple but much smoother, more irregular and lower frequency (about 16 pixel period).

    This banding can for example be seen on the sides in the DT library test on the 32mm HR where the sensor is shifted sideways (in landscape orientation). I have not yet tested if C1 cancels it out, but I would guess that it does.

    I have a CFV-50c test file where I can see the same issue, and as Phocus LCC is simple and only makes a blur it will not cancel that out.

    I previously thought Phocus was good with the CFV-50c as the Sony sensor don't show any tiling or ripple like the Dalsa 6um, but apparently I was wrong. This banding will however only be visible in ultra-high contrast processing such as sometimes used in black&white or other types of artistic processing. You will probably have less problem with this than with tiling on Dalsa sensors.

    I've attached a 100% crop of a LCC shot with strongly increased contrast which shows the vertical banding.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Interesting, although heartening to know it only presents itself with extreme processing. I wonder if Phocus will get an upgrade in the scene calibration feature to better deal to these kinds of things?
    With regards to that, how's the programming going for your own RAW converter? Are you making headway with regards to better support for the CMOS backs?

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    A one-liner fix for them would be the reduce the blur radius to say 4 pixels or so (I would guess it's 50-100 today), dust spots would disappear and also that banding and radius is still large enough to kill most noise in the LCC shot.

    Due to various other missions I'm not working that much on Lumariver HDR now, but I'm planning to make an upgrade of the raw conversion layer soon(ish) and then CFV-50c will be included. At some point I will probably look into making Phocus compatible raws too (I'm a Hassy user myself now, so I see a need ), so when you come across something difficult you can first cook up a raw in Lumariver HDR with corrections and reconstructions and then make a raw conversion as usual in Phocus.
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Anders, would that also help with reducing the tiling problem on some Delsa 60 shots?

    Off topic – I see Hasselblad are now advertising quite significant reductions on the H5D-50 camera and back, stating that it's end of line clearance. Kind of a sad day hearing the most tech-cam friendly sensor will no longer be sold.

    Back on topic – The more I read about the Sony CMOS sensor in any of it's implimentations the more I am confused as to whether it would be a good option for my work. I really, really wish I could borrow a back adaptor for my Techno and demo a CFV-50c. The latter is possible, the former near on impossible.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Anders, would that also help with reducing the tiling problem on some Delsa 60 shots?

    Off topic – I see Hasselblad are now advertising quite significant reductions on the H5D-50 camera and back, stating that it's end of line clearance. Kind of a sad day hearing the most tech-cam friendly sensor will no longer be sold.

    Back on topic – The more I read about the Sony CMOS sensor in any of it's implimentations the more I am confused as to whether it would be a good option for my work. I really, really wish I could borrow a back adaptor for my Techno and demo a CFV-50c. The latter is possible, the former near on impossible.
    It would not help the Dalsa, its tiling and its microlens ripple is sharp so you need a much smarter LCC algorithm to fix that. The CFV-50c ripple/banding is smooth so you can get away with a simple blur if the radius is not too big.

    (Sad to hear on the H5D-50, but expected. I was surprised that it didn't happen earlier. People want CMOS now, in a H-system DSLR it comes to it's full right. However the clearance is good for people getting gear below the highest end, great deals can be had on the 50MP CCDs and with Schneider Digitar lenses you have a very high performing and flexible tech system. I still hope that future CMOS will fix the angular response issue so I can go from the 50MP CCD to a newer generation CMOS with wide anglar response in a few years. That scenario is not too unlikely.)

    Is the adapter plate the only problem for the demo? Isn't it possible to get a V-mount adapter plate for your sliding back?

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    There's an additional type of artifact which I have just recently become aware of, vertical banding similar to microlens ripple but much smoother, more irregular and lower frequency (about 16 pixel period).

    This banding can for example be seen on the sides in the DT library test on the 32mm HR where the sensor is shifted sideways (in landscape orientation). I have not yet tested if C1 cancels it out, but I would guess that it does.

    I have a CFV-50c test file where I can see the same issue, and as Phocus LCC is simple and only makes a blur it will not cancel that out.

    I previously thought Phocus was good with the CFV-50c as the Sony sensor don't show any tiling or ripple like the Dalsa 6um, but apparently I was wrong. This banding will however only be visible in ultra-high contrast processing such as sometimes used in black&white or other types of artistic processing. You will probably have less problem with this than with tiling on Dalsa sensors.

    I've attached a 100% crop of a LCC shot with strongly increased contrast which shows the vertical banding.
    Phase One doesn't cancel this artifact in Capture One v8.1 yet. I will post examples.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    I can no longer edit the original post so I can only make an additional note here from Linhof Studio:

    ‘Linhof Studio were pleased to collaborate with these tests to give the photographers as unbiased opinion and help with informed decisions in their purchases. The Linhof Studio do not participate in Forums as they strongly believe this should be a free place for customers to discuss topics openly amongst themselves without the natural biased opinion of manufacturers or re-sellers. They do however offer excellent support and information on an individual basis if contacted. ‘
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    It would not help the Dalsa, its tiling and its microlens ripple is sharp so you need a much smarter LCC algorithm to fix that. The CFV-50c ripple/banding is smooth so you can get away with a simple blur if the radius is not too big.

    (Sad to hear on the H5D-50, but expected. I was surprised that it didn't happen earlier. People want CMOS now, in a H-system DSLR it comes to it's full right. However the clearance is good for people getting gear below the highest end, great deals can be had on the 50MP CCDs and with Schneider Digitar lenses you have a very high performing and flexible tech system. I still hope that future CMOS will fix the angular response issue so I can go from the 50MP CCD to a newer generation CMOS with wide anglar response in a few years. That scenario is not too unlikely.)

    Is the adapter plate the only problem for the demo? Isn't it possible to get a V-mount adapter plate for your sliding back?
    Rippling on Dalsa sensors is partially or entirely removed when using the LCC tool in Capture One using the optional setting "Technical Camera Lens".
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Rippling on Dalsa sensors is partially or entirely removed when using the LCC tool in Capture One using the optional setting "Technical Camera Lens".
    Capture One v8.1 still fail to completely eliminate tiling on the Dalsa CCD or rippling on the Sony CMOS. If you apply micro-contrast heavily during post-processing for flat areas such like the sky you still observe artifact. You can even observe this on many of those offical sample images published by Phase One.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Is the adapter plate the only problem for the demo? Isn't it possible to get a V-mount adapter plate for your sliding back?
    Because I use film, I don't have a sliding back. I just swap the Silvestri GG out for the Horsehan film back.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Capture One v8.1 still fail to completely eliminate tiling on the Dalsa CCD or rippling on the Sony CMOS. If you apply micro-contrast heavily during post-processing for flat areas such like the sky you still observe artifact. You can even observe this on many of those offical sample images published by Phase One.
    The challenge with the tiling and ripple is that it does not *exactly* match what you get on the LCC (due to crosstalk which is color-dependent), so you can't just use the LCC to cancel it out, you need to apply a filter too. I do that in Lumariver HDR, and I'm sure C1 does it too, but even then there will be a residual ripple left and the only way that seems to work to remove that is to add in noise and that neither my algorithm or C1 do.

    For 99% of post-procesing it's a non-issue though. The only folks I've seen that have problems with it is those that do black and white processing with very high contrast increases, and then you can remove it with retouching.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    voidshatter,

    ...movement along the shorter edge of the sensor should not exceed 15mm... (actually, 12mm to be conservative for the 32HR as suggested in the OP). This would work to avoid mazing if my hypothesis is true.
    And, if true, implies that mazing would not be visible with a full frame CMOS sensor, but that the range of available shift would be limited only to several millimeters.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    voidshatter,



    And, if true, implies that mazing would not be visible with a full frame CMOS sensor, but that the range of available shift would be limited only to several millimeters.
    If the fullframe CMOS sensor is going to be based on the same tech as of the IQ250, and if my hypothesis of mazing based on my systematical tests is proven to be true, then yes you may not be able to utilize full image circle of the 32HR, while you could make almost full use of the image circle of the 23HR, and make completely full use of the whole image circle of the 40HR.







    Note that the above is still only a rough guide and I will update should I discover anything new, or if Doug could provide a counterexample to invalidate my hypothesis.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    voidshatter,

    If the fullframe CMOS sensor is going to be based on the same tech as of the IQ250...
    You mentioned in a previous thread about a 120MP full frame prototype. A pixel pitch as per the IQ250 would return 77MP, full frame.

    Hopefully the prototype is not based on the same tech...

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    voidshatter,



    You mentioned in a previous thread about a 120MP full frame prototype. A pixel pitch as per the IQ250 would return 77MP, full frame.

    Hopefully the prototype is not based on the same tech...
    Current prediction:

    a) D7000/D800E/IQ250 tech in 645 format: 80 MP, current Rodenstock HR usable

    b) NEX7/D5300 tech in 645 format: 120 MP, current Rodenstock HR not usable

    c) NX1 tech in 645 format: 141 MP, current Rodenstock HR and Schneider XL probably usable (but DR will be less)

    Personally I would hope for the last one but given that it's still in APSC size as of 2015 it might still take 4 years or longer to realize (it took 4 years from D7000 to IQ250).
    Last edited by voidshatter; 13th February 2015 at 22:34.

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Thanks to the very generous support of Paula at Linhof Studio, I am able to test the CFV-50c for myself in the coming weeks on my own Linhof Techno. I'm interested to see how my Rodenstock 55mm APO-Sironar Digital performs with shifts. The only other lens I currently have is the 90mm HR-W (blue band), but that focal length doesn't interest me at all on this format. I have realistic expectations but high hopes...

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Current prediction:

    a) D7000/D800E/IQ250 tech in 645 format: 80 MP, current Rodenstock HR usable

    b) NEX7/D5300 tech in 645 format: 120 MP, current Rodenstock HR not usable

    c) NX1 tech in 645 format: 141 MP, current Rodenstock HR and Schneider XL probably usable (but DR will be less)

    Personally I would hope for the last one but given that it's still in APSC size as of 2015 it might still take 4 years or longer to realize (it took 4 years from D7000 to IQ250).
    One question I keep asking is: if you make a 80 to 100 MP CMOS a sensor based on the technology of the IQ250 this would the pixel pitch get even smaller than the current IQ250? If so then this new Full frame CMOS would have less than desirable performance with tech lens camera especially when movements are needed?

    Wouldn't any full frame sensor have to have an even smaller pixel pitch?

    Paul

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    Re: IQ250 movement tests on the 23/32/40/70/90 - desaturation and mazing artifact

    Hi,

    The IQ 250 upscaled to "full frame" 645 would be around 85 MP, keeping the pixel pitch. I don't know which vendors Phase One is working with, but would be feasible for Dalsa to make a 100 MP sensor for Phase.

    Personally, I like small pixels, but I also realise that small pixels don't work well with large beam angles, like the ones coming from symmetrical lenses of short focal length.

    It may be possible that shallower wells work better, but I guess that shallower wells may give up a bit of DR.

    I would guess that one problem with MF is that sensor design is driven by developments where the optical system and sensor are optimised as a whole, like mobile phones.

    It may be possible that a vendor like Phase One would be able to designs a sensor with say Dalsa that takes technical cameras into account. But it is a bit complex. Phase One is also a camera maker, and technical cameras is not a dominant piece of the market for Phase.

    I guess we have to wait and see to find out.

    Personally, I am pretty sure that small pixels are optimal for the DSLR/Mirrorless market. With technical cameras it is a bit different, due to he large and variable beam angles.

    I would guess that we may see more complex sensor designs with shallower pixels combined with increased full well capacity, that would solve many of the issues we face today.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    One question I keep asking is: if you make a 80 to 100 MP CMOS a sensor based on the technology of the IQ250 this would the pixel pitch get even smaller than the current IQ250? If so then this new Full frame CMOS would have less than desirable performance with tech lens camera especially when movements are needed?

    Wouldn't any full frame sensor have to have an even smaller pixel pitch?

    Paul

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