Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 66

Thread: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

  1. #1
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Very interesting. If I understand well, it seems that it will become true with one of the future "kaizen" firmware updates.
    That's what I like about Fujifilm, no need to buy a different and more expensive camera to get some great feature updates. At least for a while...

    https://www.dpreview.com/news/764844...-camera-system
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  2. #2
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    I finally read the report. There are a number of big "if"s there. Like, "we have to control the sensor with 10 times the accuracy needed for IBIS". That does not sound like a done deal.

    OTOH, Frame Averaging would be a simple processor task. I bet the difficulties THERE are all patent related.

    Matt
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    2,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    From Fuji Rumors:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	07FDEF66-FE99-450D-8FE5-6E637F72D819.jpeg 
Views:	15 
Size:	600.1 KB 
ID:	147270


    Fuji first mentioned this long before when the GFX100 was still on the development board, then when the camera was close to release, decided to bring the camera to market without this feature.

    Glad to see it's back on the board, but per the video you mention and some other websites, there is no mention of when it will be made available.

    I have no need for 400MP output, but would more welcome a feature like Phase One has on the 4150 frame averaging. If the pixel shift mode enhances DR that would be a benefit. I am sure it will require a tripod and subject movement will be limited. It will also take a very superb raw conversion. LR/ACR's conversion for the Pentax K1 was terrible and never improved upon (Abode's typical one and done approach). Since Phase One is now formally supporting the GFX cameras I hope that Capture One will support the pixel shift images (C1 never supported the Pentax K1 pixel shift). Pentax's Pixel shift was different in that it did not increase resolution 4x, but instead gave increased details and much better signal noise/DR, vastly cleaner images.

    Personally I had hoped for a improvement in firmware for the AF on the camera as I find it's lacking in low light/low contrast situations, similar to the 50s and other Fuji X series cameras I have used.

    Paul C
    Paul Caldwell
    [email protected]
    www.photosofarkansas.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts and Vermont
    Posts
    1,277
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    Very interesting. If I understand well, it seems that it will become true with one of the future "kaizen" firmware updates.
    That's what I like about Fujifilm, no need to buy a different and more expensive camera to get some great feature updates. At least for a while...

    https://www.dpreview.com/news/764844...-camera-system
    There are very significant differences in the way various manufacturers implement the pixel shift technology in terms of its actual utility in real world usage outside a studio and in workflow. This is discussed in detail at Diglloyd's website. The Panasonic S1R apparently merges the multiple files in cameras using its own firmware to create a single raw file and apparently deals much better with things like movement from wind and water. It also eliminates the need to rely upon a raw converter to assemble the images. In contrast, the Sony implementation is apparently poor, both in terms of workflow and output.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    2,475
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Hopefully Fuji does their homework and does not require a piece of software like Sony to combine the files to a single DNG. Instead process out in camera. However as this is an add on to existing camera processor I feel it will be done like Sony unfortunately.

    It will be interesting to see how they do it.

    Would be nice to also add a frame averaging feature like P1.

    Paul C

  6. #6
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Personally, and not being directly involved (I don't own a GFX100), I would give priority to pixel-shift rather than FA.
    FA is easily achievable in post (just do a bunch of shots and merge in PS). Pixel-shift can't be easily done manually. Super-Res techniques are based on random framing variations and statistics, not that precise and scientifically exact as pixel-shift is. Moreover, with pixel-shift one can sample all 3 base colours for each pixel and skip the demosaicing algorithm and its artefacts.
    Last edited by mristuccia; 8th February 2020 at 09:28.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #7
    Senior Member Greg Haag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Jonesboro, Arkansas
    Posts
    325
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    I do not own the GFX, but I do own the S1R, it does an excellent job with the in camera pixel-shift. On my Phase One back if you gave me the option of getting pixel shift or taking away frame averaging, I would want to keep frame averaging, but probably depends on what needs you are trying to meet.

  8. #8
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    FA is easily achievable in post (just do a bunch of shots and merge in PS).
    That is true in theory. In practice, though: GFX100 files are 130MB, compressed. Suppose you want to do a 10 minute FA exposure with 1 second per frame. That's 600 frames, or 78 GB. And try loading that in PS. (Yes, you could average ten at a time and iterate, but it would be nice not to worry about the storage.) Even if you do 10 frames per shot, you end up using your storage ten times as fast. I'd rather it were done in-camera.

    The exception is astrophotography, where "lucky imaging" is a wonderful technique, and the frames to be averaged are selected in post.

    Matt
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  9. #9
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    That is true in theory. In practice, though: GFX100 files are 130MB, compressed. Suppose you want to do a 10 minute FA exposure with 1 second per frame. That's 600 frames, or 78 GB. And try loading that in PS. (Yes, you could average ten at a time and iterate, but it would be nice not to worry about the storage.) Even if you do 10 frames per shot, you end up using your storage ten times as fast. I'd rather it were done in-camera.

    The exception is astrophotography, where "lucky imaging" is a wonderful technique, and the frames to be averaged are selected in post.

    Matt
    True that! I would in this case do an iteration-macro to average one frame after the other. I think that the firmware in the back does something similar, it certainly does not save all the images before averaging, otherwise the storage space problem would be there as well.
    Still pixel-shift has no chance to be done at all in post-production.

    But of course it is a matter of personal priorities, mostly depending on the specific photography job each one of us does.
    Personally, I really hate thinking that 2/3 of the color data of all our images are the result of an interpolation-guess.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Well, this only doubles the resolution--it quadruples the data, which is a different thing. It is also one of the trade-offs of having more and more pixels, the file size increases at a faster rate than the increase in resolution.

    Still, pixel shift is great technology and if you have IBIS then you get to offer some neat technology through firmware. It would also be nice if they could add the Pentax star tracking functionality and true color technology that does not need Bayer interpretation. But to be honest, when you have a 100MP sensor, what are you really adding to the final output (as opposed to the 100% monitor view).

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Melbourne AU
    Posts
    513
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    91

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    G'day Shashin, could you help me understand this please? Moving from 100-400MP but only doubling the resolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Well, this only doubles the resolution-[snip]

  12. #12
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelorus View Post
    G'day Shashin, could you help me understand this please? Moving from 100-400MP but only doubling the resolution?
    It's a definition: resolution is how close together two points can be and still be distinguishable as two points. There's a technical criterion, but the point is that it's a distance, e.g., 3 microns, or inverse-distance, say, 40 lines/mm.

    Megapixels fill an area, so increasing the resolution from 40 lines/mm to 80 lines/mm requires FOUR times as many pixels. They're more tightly packed both horizontally and vertically.

    Going from 100MP to 400MP on the same sensor means doubling the number of rows and columns, and so doubling the resolution.

    More recently, I've seen resolution put in terms of MP, as in, "the eye can resolve 576 MP". That is just a different definition of resolution, and it can get confusing which one is meant. It's like saying a cell phone has a 28mm lens. It's really a 4mm lens, but it's translated to FF "coordinates".

    --Matt
    Thanks 3 Member(s) thanked for this post

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Melbourne AU
    Posts
    513
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    91

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Thanks Matt and Will, I should engage my brain before my typing fingers. A very eloquent explanation Matt.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    It's a definition: resolution is how close together two points can be and still be distinguishable as two points. There's a technical criterion, but the point is that it's a distance, e.g., 3 microns, or inverse-distance, say, 40 lines/mm.

    Megapixels fill an area, so increasing the resolution from 40 lines/mm to 80 lines/mm requires FOUR times as many pixels. They're more tightly packed both horizontally and vertically.

    Going from 100MP to 400MP on the same sensor means doubling the number of rows and columns, and so doubling the resolution.

    More recently, I've seen resolution put in terms of MP, as in, "the eye can resolve 576 MP". That is just a different definition of resolution, and it can get confusing which one is meant. It's like saying a cell phone has a 28mm lens. It's really a 4mm lens, but it's translated to FF "coordinates".

    --Matt

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Last time I checked, photographs are two dimensional, not one.

    Every camera manufacturer on the planet defines resolution as the number of pixels on the sensor, not the linear resolution or gap between said pixels.

    I don't think it's necessary to provide hundreds of links to prove this.

    100-400 is quadruple - not double - the resolution, in the parlance of 99.999% of the camera buying public.

    Yes, words have multiple meanings. But to try to claim that when almost every single person talks about "resolution" they are not counting pixels, is a little silly.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Haag View Post
    I do not own the GFX, but I do own the S1R, it does an excellent job with the in camera pixel-shift. On my Phase One back if you gave me the option of getting pixel shift or taking away frame averaging, I would want to keep frame averaging, but probably depends on what needs you are trying to meet.
    Greg - are you sure your S1R does a good job?

    I get bad "combing" (not sure what else to call it) anywhere where there is high contrast - for example, black text on a white background.

    I've actually given up using the pixel-shift on the S1R because of it.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    pegelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    3,759
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    I don't think it makes a lot of sense to express resolution of sensors as the number of pixels and the resolution of lenses in lines per millimeter , but indeed words can have different meanings to different persons, so to each his own.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Greg Haag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Jonesboro, Arkansas
    Posts
    325
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Greg - are you sure your S1R does a good job?

    I get bad "combing" (not sure what else to call it) anywhere where there is high contrast - for example, black text on a white background.

    I've actually given up using the pixel-shift on the S1R because of it.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    Gerald,
    I have been very pleased with the S1R in high res mode. I cannot speak to the combing issue as I have not noticed this, however, if it occurs in situations with text I have never used it where text has been in the image. Maybe this would show in larger prints, I have never printed an image from the S1R larger than 24x36.
    Thanks,
    Greg

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Last time I checked, photographs are two dimensional, not one.

    Every camera manufacturer on the planet defines resolution as the number of pixels on the sensor, not the linear resolution or gap between said pixels.

    I don't think it's necessary to provide hundreds of links to prove this.

    100-400 is quadruple - not double - the resolution, in the parlance of 99.999% of the camera buying public.

    Yes, words have multiple meanings. But to try to claim that when almost every single person talks about "resolution" they are not counting pixels, is a little silly.
    Actually, for Japanese manufacturers, they do not by an industry standard use the number of pixels to define resolution. I was actually working as a technical writer for a camera company when the standards were set for describing the technical specifications of a digital camera.

    Because the "buying" public believes resolution equals pixel number does not make it right. Most photographers think Bokeh means narrow depth of field, which is simply wrong. I don't believe that a technical field and discipline is best run by popular vote. Naturally, I don't assume when people say "resolution" they are actually referring to the technical definition. Just like I don't assume when people use the word Bokeh they are referring to the quality of the out-of-focus area of the image. But likewise, I don't mind the conversation because I think it is good to understand your discipline.

    Now, you can simply define things in a personal way and be happy with that. However, you might find that the technical definitions have some real merit and practical outcomes. If you actually have to meet a resolution requirement from a photographic system and you think pixels equals resolving power, then you will come up short.

    I guess I don't understand the downside of knowing what terms actually mean...
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  19. #19
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    FA is easily achievable in post (just do a bunch of shots and merge in PS).
    This is much easier said before you have used the Automated in-camera Frame Averaging of the IQ4.

    Once you've done it in-camera, with a single click, resulting in a "normal" raw file you can treat like any other (that just happens to be unbelievably clean in the shadows and allows long exposure without an ND filter), it's hard to view the capture-a-bunch-of-raws-convert-to-tiffs-manually-keep-track-of-which-ones-belong-to-which-stack-then-load-into-huge-photoshop-document-and-average method as "easily achievable".

    It's like learning to do calculus or standard deviations by long-hand vs pushing a button and having the answer. Maybe some will enjoy the extra work. But for most people they just want the end result, and in-camera Automated Frame Averaging is just a way faster, easier, less distracting way of getting there.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  20. #20
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    Moreover, with pixel-shift one can sample all 3 base colours for each pixel and skip the demosaicing algorithm and its artefacts.
    And introduce new artifacts unique to pixel shifting .

    (Bias alert: My company (Digital Transitions) chooses to sell cameras (Phase One) that do not do pixel shifting and chooses not to sell cameras (e.g. Sinar, Hasselblad, Fuji) that do. So I'm obviously biased. But I also have quite a lot of experience working with clients to evaluate against these options. I've posted more of what I've learned from that experience here.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  21. #21
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    This is much easier said before you have used the Automated in-camera Frame Averaging of the IQ4.

    Once you've done it in-camera, with a single click, resulting in a "normal" raw file you can treat like any other (that just happens to be unbelievably clean in the shadows and allows long exposure without an ND filter), it's hard to view the capture-a-bunch-of-raws-convert-to-tiffs-manually-keep-track-of-which-ones-belong-to-which-stack-then-load-into-huge-photoshop-document-and-average method as "easily achievable".

    It's like learning to do calculus or standard deviations by long-hand vs pushing a button and having the answer. Maybe some will enjoy the extra work. But for most people they just want the end result, and in-camera Automated Frame Averaging is just a way faster, easier, less distracting way of getting there.
    Doug,

    don't put this so bad.
    I understand that the automated FA experience is night and day in respect to doing it manually. But there are people like me who doesn't bother at all, the pace is slow in any case when I use digital backs and technical cameras. And I have time and patience. A simple macro automation would do the job, and I'm a software developer, so I could automate the FA post further if I'd really need it. But I don't need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    keep-track-of-which-ones-belongs-to-which-stack?
    I just photograph my hand between each stack group. The rest is done by the image counter. Easy-peasy.

    But what I wanted to say in my quoted post is that trading a thing that cannot be manually done (pixel-shift) with one that can be (FA) is not my way of thinking.
    Of course both our biased mileage may vary...
    Last edited by mristuccia; 9th February 2020 at 15:09.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  22. #22
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    And introduce new artifacts unique to pixel shifting .

    (Bias alert: My company (Digital Transitions) chooses to sell cameras (Phase One) that do not do pixel shifting and chooses not to sell cameras (e.g. Sinar, Hasselblad, Fuji) that do. So I'm obviously biased. But I also have quite a lot of experience working with clients to evaluate against these options. I've posted more of what I've learned from that experience here.
    It could be, but it doesn't have to be. Let's wait and then test...
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  23. #23
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    I understand that the automated FA experience is night and day in respect to doing it manually. But there are people like me who doesn't bother at all, the pace is slow in any case when I use digital backs and technical cameras. And I have time and patience.
    As I said, some people will enjoy calculating standard deviation long hand rather than using a calculator. Not a thing in the world wrong with that.

    I personally enjoy doing dishes by hand more than using a dishwasher.

    Different strokes...
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    609
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    This is much easier said before you have used the Automated in-camera Frame Averaging of the IQ4.

    Once you've done it in-camera, with a single click, resulting in a "normal" raw file you can treat like any other (that just happens to be unbelievably clean in the shadows and allows long exposure without an ND filter), it's hard to view the capture-a-bunch-of-raws-convert-to-tiffs-manually-keep-track-of-which-ones-belong-to-which-stack-then-load-into-huge-photoshop-document-and-average method as "easily achievable".
    In my experience, using Photoshop's "Load files into Stack" utility makes it quite easy to load files for further processing. And a big advantage of going this route instead of averaging frames in-camera is that one isn't limited solely to averaging the frames, but can also process them in several other ways, some of which -- such as median blending -- can produce even better results for some purposes than just simple frame averaging. And because the stacked files are a Smart Object, it's easy to experiment with various blending modes to see if better results can be achieved using a blending method other than averaging, even if one ultimately decides that averaging is, in fact, the best choice.

    It's like learning to do calculus or standard deviations by long-hand vs pushing a button and having the answer. Maybe some will enjoy the extra work. But for most people they just want the end result, and in-camera Automated Frame Averaging is just a way faster, easier, less distracting way of getting there.
    Another point in favor of using the long-hand method is that it costs nothing but time, as there's no need to buy a fancy calculator to do the extra work for you. Now, for some photographers, time is money -- I get that -- but for many other photographers -- *raises hand!* -- money is more valuable than time, so the long-hand method is the only option realistically available to them. And for yet other photographers -- *raises hand again!* -- the quality of results matters more than the time or money required to achieve them, hence the flexibility of being able to blend files using different modes during post-processing is essential.

    <rant>Phase One is certainly to be applauded for offering this feature, but personally, I find the zeal with which it is being promoted by some (and not necessarily you, Doug, because you do acknowledge similar results can be achieved via other methods) bothers me somewhat, because many are implying this is a breakthrough of sorts by Phase One, whereas in reality, all they did was bring in-camera a processing technique that has been commonly used in another field of photography for decades and limit its flexibility in the process. In-camera frame averaging is convenient, sure; but it's hardly the breakthrough some are trying sell it as... </rant>
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  25. #25
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    As I said, some people will enjoy calculating standard deviation long hand rather than using a calculator. Not a thing in the world wrong with that.

    I personally enjoy doing dishes by hand more than using a dishwasher.

    Different strokes...
    It is more like calculating the standard deviation on a programmable pocket calculator in the field versus doing it on a desktop PC at home. No paper work in both cases. ,)

    But I get your point, and by the way I like to hand wash dishes as well.
    Last edited by mristuccia; 10th February 2020 at 03:31.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  26. #26
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    A camera tethered to a laptop would be able to do FA in real time with fairly simple programming. You’d want software that could average RAW pixel data and not apply demosaicing until done. Dcraw?

    Matt
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  27. #27
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    A camera tethered to a laptop would be able to do FA in real time with fairly simple programming. You’d want software that could average RAW pixel data and not apply demosaicing until done. Dcraw?

    Matt
    I think that LibRaw and a little bit of coding could easily perform FA directly on the RAW data.

    Not sure whether the average is a linear operator, but I assume we could also do something like this:

    Code:
    load first image and make it the current image
    while (there is a next image)
    {
        load next image
        average with current image and make the result as current image
    }
    save the current image.
    By doing this no more than 2 images must be kept in memory, and I suspect that this is more or less the method used by P1 inside their 4150 back.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  28. #28
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    I think that LibRaw and a little bit of coding could easily perform FA directly on the RAW data.

    Not sure whether the average is a linear operator, but I assume we could also do something like this:

    Code:
    load first image and make it the current image
    while (there is a next image)
    {
        load next image
        average with current image and make the result as current image
    }
    save the current image.
    By doing this no more than 2 images must be kept in memory, and I suspect that this is more or less the method used by P1 inside their 4150 back.
    The correct formula has to keep a count of how many images are already absorbed. The k-th new_average = 1/k * new image + (k-1)/k * old_average

    Still simple enough.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  29. #29
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    The correct formula has to keep a count of how many images are already absorbed. The k-th new_average = 1/k * new image + (k-1)/k * old_average

    Still simple enough.
    Yes, you're right| But I fear that 1/k could be too small if the number of images is big, we could loose precision by applying your "right" formula. Don't remember whether a pixel in the RAW file is represented by a 8 or 16 bit value. I suppose the second one. However I'm curious. When I find a little bit of time I will try and let you now.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  30. #30
    Senior Member Greg Haag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Jonesboro, Arkansas
    Posts
    325
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Gerald,
    Sorry for the delay on the combing issue. This is not how I shoot, so I pieced together as best I could something to test and see about the combing on high contrast w text. This is shot with the S1R hi-res mode, the canon adaptor w canon 100mm macro, I have included a bts shot for clarity. I shot it in both mode 1 and mode 2, in this example, I felt mode 2 performed better. I am not sure if this actually addresses what you were referring to or not, if not, let me know and I can try again.
    Thanks,
    Greg


    Name:  S1R w Canon 100macro-1001980.jpg
Views: 554
Size:  352.2 KBName:  S1R w Canon 100macro bts-1358.jpg
Views: 555
Size:  599.3 KB
    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Greg - are you sure your S1R does a good job?

    I get bad "combing" (not sure what else to call it) anywhere where there is high contrast - for example, black text on a white background.

    I've actually given up using the pixel-shift on the S1R because of it.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

  31. #31
    Senior Member Abstraction's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    469
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    I find that I don't need to do a standard deviation calculations. I can usually just take one look at a guy and tell you right away the amount of standard deviation. Sometimes, it's substandard deviation.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  32. #32
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    Yes, you're right| But I fear that 1/k could be too small if the number of images is big, we could loose precision by applying your "right" formula. Don't remember whether a pixel in the RAW file is represented by a 8 or 16 bit value. I suppose the second one. However I'm curious. When I find a little bit of time I will try and let you now.
    I suppose from a numerical analysis point of view, the frames should all just be added, and then the sum divided by N at the end. That prevents a lot of multiplication by 995/996, etc. Some buffer has to hold floating point values. I wonder how much of a camera's chip handles floating point arrays. The output is integers, and the DA converters provide integers. You'd really want either floating point, or much larger integers than the bit depth of a pixel normally produces.

    Matt

  33. #33
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I suppose from a numerical analysis point of view, the frames should all just be added, and then the sum divided by N at the end. That prevents a lot of multiplication by 995/996, etc. Some buffer has to hold floating point values. I wonder how much of a camera's chip handles floating point arrays. The output is integers, and the DA converters provide integers. You'd really want either floating point, or much larger integers than the bit depth of a pixel normally produces.

    Matt
    That is a good point.
    Yes, everything is integer inside the camera.
    Assuming that a pixel is represented by an unsigned 16 bit value, if we accumulate into an unsigned 32 bit variable we can store up to 65536 images before risking an overflow. This should be plenty enough.
    At the end we divide by N.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  34. #34
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nyköping Sweden
    Posts
    1,422
    Post Thanks / Like

    Some reflections....

    Hi,

    We can pretty much see the potential benefits of multishot looking at the Sony A7rIV, that has a sensor design which is probably very close to the GFX 100. Same generation Sony BSI with the same pixel size.

    DPReviews has some comparable test shots.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Moire.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	976.0 KB 
ID:	147343
    These images are not sharpened, as far as I recall, but shows the Multishot reduces color moiré.

    Name:  CDetail2.jpg
Views: 476
Size:  657.1 KB
    Looking at real world detail, the benefits may be small.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	20.9 KB 
ID:	147345
    Looking at the USAF targets in the image may indicate the 16 image multishot may resolve more detail.

    But, folks more knowledgeable than me essentially say (mostly) that is not the case (mostly).

    Anyway, I calculated some MTF data from the two samples:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MS.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	15.8 KB 
ID:	147346

    The top chart is MTF and the bottom is edge profile. My take is (or may be)
    • The MTF curves are pretty close.
    • There is a small advantage to the 16X multishot image in resolution at 20% MTF
    • The single shot image has significant MTF at Nyquist, would cause aliasing.
    • The resolution advantage at MTF 20% of the 16X multishot is around 16%, that may correspond the simplified demosaicing algorithm, as we have RGBG values for each pixel.


    To find out more may need some studies at the pixel level.

    Using 16 exposures means that we have 16x more data and that would double signal noise ratio.

    Best regards
    Erik

  35. #35
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Just reading some tests made by Jim Kasson about this topic, especially the following two ones:

    https://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/sony-...dynamic-range/

    https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/pixel-...he-sony-a7riv/

    By going through the second one I happened to read about the capacity of the LR's "Enhance Details" of removing color artefacts, an effect similar to what we could obtain by means of pixel shift.

    I was curious and tried on a sample image.

    Here is the full test image:



    And here is a comparison of a 100% detail crop without (left) and with LR enhanced details (right):



    Look at the fence and at the water. Less color artefacts. That's quite interesting...
    Unfortunately this is an Hasselblad image (Cambo WDS, CFV-50c and Planar 2.8/80, 100 ISO, 3mm lens raise) and I can't compare results with Capture One...
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  36. #36
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    I am not sure a 100% monitor view is actually significant. I would make two large prints and hang them side by side and see if there is a real perceptual difference. I suspect not.

  37. #37
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    Just reading some tests made by Jim Kasson about this topic, especially the following two ones:

    https://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/sony-...dynamic-range/

    https://blog.kasson.com/a7riv/pixel-...he-sony-a7riv/

    By going through the second one I happened to read about the capacity of the LR's "Enhance Details" of removing color artefacts, an effect similar to what we could obtain by means of pixel shift.
    [...]
    Look at the fence and at the water. Less color artefacts. That's quite interesting...
    Unfortunately this is an Hasselblad image (Cambo WDS, CFV-50c and Planar 2.8/80, 100 ISO, 3mm lens raise) and I can't compare results with Capture One...
    I was very excited by "Enhance Detail" when it first came out.

    But my testing showed it basically brought LR on par-ish with Capture One's native raw processing, but with the added cost of workflow speed, workflow complexity, larger storage requirements, and the requirement to use LightRoom.

    Really much better (in my highly biased opinion) to just use Capture One.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  38. #38
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I am not sure a 100% monitor view is actually significant. I would make two large prints and hang them side by side and see if there is a real perceptual difference. I suspect not.
    The definitely is. Color noise artifacts (aliasing) shows up to my eye very quickly. Especially from LR which is very prone to it.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  39. #39
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I was very excited by "Enhance Detail" when it first came out.

    But my testing showed it basically brought LR on par-ish with Capture One's native raw processing, but with the added cost of workflow speed, workflow complexity, larger storage requirements, and the requirement to use LightRoom.

    Really much better (in my highly biased opinion) to just use Capture One.
    Hi Doug,

    hope you don't mind if I just point out that out there there are even people who use Hasselblad and unfortunately cannot benefit of that marvellous C1 magic...
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  40. #40
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I was very excited by "Enhance Detail" when it first came out.

    But my testing showed it basically brought LR on par-ish with Capture One's native raw processing, but with the added cost of workflow speed, workflow complexity, larger storage requirements, and the requirement to use LightRoom.

    Really much better (in my highly biased opinion) to just use Capture One.
    By the way, tried with Iridient RAW Developer and with RawTherapee and the color artefacs on the fence are still there.
    Would be curious to try out with C1, unfortunately I can't.
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  41. #41
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I was very excited by "Enhance Detail" when it first came out.

    But my testing showed it basically brought LR on par-ish with Capture One's native raw processing, but with the added cost of workflow speed, workflow complexity, larger storage requirements, and the requirement to use LightRoom.

    Really much better (in my highly biased opinion) to just use Capture One.
    Just to close this analysis, even if it is a little bit out of topic (apologise), I tried Capture One as well (don't ask me how I managed to load the Hasselblad RAW file into C1... )
    You were right in saying that C1 manages the demosaicing great, no color artefacts in the fence and in the water (maximise your browser window to better see details).

    The image URL: http://www.marcoristuccia.com/shared/ComboTest.jpg

    Kudos to C1!



    Best,
    marco
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  42. #42
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Marco,

    Of course, I have no idea if this is what you did, but comparing different RAW converters at their default settings is useless.

    C1's defaults are usually better tuned, and its images look better out of the box. LR doesn't bother, and requires you to adjust their default settings to get the best (or even decent) results. I have not done this experiment, but what happens if you increase the Moiré suppression in LR? Or color noise suppression? Do the color artifacts fade? Bayer de-mosaicing is a fairly mature technology.

    There are cameras for which C1 is distinctly better. For the Fuji x-trans sensor, C1 does a great job that LR just can't match. The maze artifacts in C1 are as well suppressed as the gold standard Iridient. With LR, they are annoying and I, at least, have found no way to avoid them.

    Best,

    Matt

  43. #43
    Member mristuccia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Berlin
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Marco,

    Of course, I have no idea if this is what you did, but comparing different RAW converters at their default settings is useless.

    C1's defaults are usually better tuned, and its images look better out of the box. LR doesn't bother, and requires you to adjust their default settings to get the best (or even decent) results. I have not done this experiment, but what happens if you increase the Moiré suppression in LR? Or color noise suppression? Do the color artifacts fade? Bayer de-mosaicing is a fairly mature technology.

    There are cameras for which C1 is distinctly better. For the Fuji x-trans sensor, C1 does a great job that LR just can't match. The maze artifacts in C1 are as well suppressed as the gold standard Iridient. With LR, they are annoying and I, at least, have found no way to avoid them.

    Best,

    Matt
    Hi Matt,

    I tried to adjust the color noise reduction and the moiré correction in LR. By means of a localised moiré correction I'm able to remove the color artefacts from the fence and from the water. On the other side, even with the color noise reduction set to maximum the artefacts remain there, especially on the water.
    Capture One (v. 12) remains pretty clean even with the chroma noise reduction set to 0 (default = 50) and the moiré set to 0 (which is the default setting).

    I have the Fujifilm X-T2 and I agree with you that for X-Trans C1 and Iridient beat LR hands down. That's the (only) reason why I've bought C1 12 Pro for Fujifilm.

    Regards,
    m/
    Marco Ristuccia
    photography.marcoristuccia.com
    "Unconcerned but not indifferent."

  44. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Actually, for Japanese manufacturers, they do not by an industry standard use the number of pixels to define resolution. I was actually working as a technical writer for a camera company when the standards were set for describing the technical specifications of a digital camera.
    What year was this?

  45. #45
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    Hi Matt,

    I tried to adjust the color noise reduction and the moiré correction in LR. By means of a localised moiré correction I'm able to remove the color artefacts from the fence and from the water. On the other side, even with the color noise reduction set to maximum the artefacts remain there, especially on the water.
    Capture One (v. 12) remains pretty clean even with the chroma noise reduction set to 0 (default = 50) and the moiré set to 0 (which is the default setting).

    I have the Fujifilm X-T2 and I agree with you that for X-Trans C1 and Iridient beat LR hands down. That's the (only) reason why I've bought C1 12 Pro for Fujifilm.

    Regards,
    m/
    Fair enough. No one tool is perfect, alas.

    M

  46. #46
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    C1's defaults are usually better tuned, and its images look better out of the box. LR doesn't bother, and requires you to adjust their default settings to get the best (or even decent) results. I have not done this experiment, but what happens if you increase the Moiré suppression in LR? Or color noise suppression? Do the color artifacts fade? Bayer de-mosaicing is a fairly mature technology.
    One would think. But then you try Adobe Lightroom and Capture One on the same well-shot raw file, tune both to their best results, and it's still not a very subtle difference in my opinion.

    I think we all underestimated how much the math for raw demosaicing could be improved. If you asked me when I started in 2003, I would have told you there was little, if any, improvement yet to be made at that point. I was, plainly put, spectacularly wrong.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  47. #47
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,012
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by mristuccia View Post
    Just to close this analysis, even if it is a little bit out of topic (apologise), I tried Capture One as well (don't ask me how I managed to load the Hasselblad RAW file into C1... )
    You were right in saying that C1 manages the demosaicing great, no color artefacts in the fence and in the water (maximise your browser window to better see details).
    And moreover I think the overall detail rendering in C1 is still more pictorially pleasant. Look at the background areas where LR is artificially sharpening/"enhancing" subject matter that isn't actually detail, or at the harsh (and not consistently present) grain in the high detail fence areas in LR.

    And since you likely had to make the comparison using a hacked raw file (since your camera isn't supported in C1) imagine how much nicer it is when you're working with a camera that is natively supported and for which lens profiles, color profiles, and detail/noise algorithms are all specifically tuned.

    The math in C1 is just better; full stop.

    That said, if, for whatever reason, you're a LR user, the "enhance details" might be a useful way to get closer to the C1 result, albeit at the cost of speed, file size, and simplicity.

    P.S. To my eye I suggest lower the sharpening threshold on the C1 file, and reducing the amount of sharpening, but turning the detail slider up a bit. That should help with the more filmic/naturalistic rendering of the smoother areas of the subject that are currently ever so slightly smoothed out. Of course, it's subjective, so you may or may not agree – and you'd be right either way!
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  48. #48
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    One would think. But then you try Adobe Lightroom and Capture One on the same well-shot raw file, tune both to their best results, and it's still not a very subtle difference in my opinion.
    I agree with this statement, but not, I think, in the way you meant it. I often process the same RAW in both converters, and choose one or the other, depending on what I can achieve. Color leans towards C1, B&W leans towards LR. Fuji x-trans are 100% C1. Leica S is 100% LR .

    We can debate the proper usage of "better" and "worse" another time.

    Best,

    Matt

  49. #49
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    150

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    What year was this?
    Every year since the early 2000s up to the present. The term is "Effective Number of Pixels."

  50. #50
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    3,061
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Fuji Sub-um technology will bring pixel-shift and 400mpx on GFX100

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I agree with this statement, but not, I think, in the way you meant it. I often process the same RAW in both converters, and choose one or the other, depending on what I can achieve. Color leans towards C1, B&W leans towards LR. Fuji x-trans are 100% C1. Leica S is 100% LR .

    We can debate the proper usage of "better" and "worse" another time.

    Best,

    Matt
    Interested in your experience /preference for LR over C1 for B&W conversions Matt.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •