Nikon mirrorless ?

[Godfrey]

All this talk about AF doesn't intrigue me at all because I see AF as an occasionally useful convenience rather than as a necessity. I have as yet found no reason to trust AF to do the job that my eyes do so well when focusing a camera, all the AF systems I've seen and used so far miss far more frequently than my eyes do when the scene is anything other than very simple, on all cameras. There are simply times when it would be convenient, such as when critical focusing is less important (small aperture used with a wide lens, zeroing in on the eye in a portrait shot, etc).

Be that as it may, I'm more interested in what is to me a more basic and yet still difficult aspect of an EVF camera: the ability for the viewfinder image to be seen clearly in bright sunlit circumstances. The fundamental characteristic of a reflex viewfinder, that it is brighter and easier to see with whenever the light levels go up, has not yet been fully achieved in any EVF camera I've used. The Olympus E-M1's adaptive illumination of the EVF has so far been the best at this, the Sony A7 was pretty awful, the Leica SL only just okay, the Leica CL about on par with the SL. Earlier EVF cameras aren't even on the same scale. An EVF to be used in bright sunlight needs more illumination than even a simple match to the ambient light suggests because users tend to be wearing eye protection (sunglasses) in such circumstances.

It would be nice if Nikon innovated in this regard and truly allowed the viewfinder panel to amp up enough so that its full dynamic range was available for viewing when light conditions were bright and contrasty. Think of a ball game on a sunny Summer afternoon ... our eyes can see into the inky shadows where the detail is as well as in the bright highlights, but the EVF in most cameras doesn't allow us the same capability. I can imagine some real-time HDR work operating on the incoming signals could do it, finally matching the way that EVFs become so much easier to see in low brightness levels than a reflex finder.

That's what I'm most interested to see about the new Nikon.

G

—
Oh yeah: Regards the flange diameter, it's obvious from the problems reported by lens makers (Sigma and Zeiss that I recall) that Sony went too small on diameter for the mounting flange in order to keep the cameras small (something like 46-47mm inside diameter @ 19mm register). Leica chose a very large flange diameter for the L-mount (51.5mm inside diameter @ 19mm register) to accommodate both APS-C and FF formats with a ratio of 1.19:1 flange to (FF) sensor diagonal; the TL/TL2/CL compact line bodies with the smaller sensor are a bit larger than they might be otherwise. It will be interesting to see what Nikon has done when the product ships as that will give us an idea of what their future product lines might be in terms of different sized bodies, and maybe different sensor formats.

 

[Frankly]

All this talk about AF doesn't intrigue me at all because I see AF as an occasionally useful convenience rather than as a necessity. I have as yet found no reason to trust AF to do the job that my eyes do so well when focusing a camera, all the AF systems I've seen and used so far miss far more frequently than my eyes do when the scene is anything other than very simple, on all cameras. There are simply times when it would be convenient, such as when critical focusing is less important (small aperture used with a wide lens, zeroing in on the eye in a portrait shot, etc).

I used to feel this way too. And I mostly photographed static subjects with normal-ish lenses.

About 10 years I decided to read up on Auto-focus and practice using it. Later I got my first professional telephoto lens and pro DSLR (a Nikon D2x). And I was photographing living, moving subjects ~ dancers, with some random running dogs, sports type things, the occasional birdie.

Auto-focus really does work well, especially in the semi-pro Nikon system. I think it's nothing short of amazing watching the camera and lens track a dog running full speed towards the camera through tall grass and I'll still get 90% of the dog's eyes and face in focus. I certainly never could do that with any manual or mirrorless camera, and my brand bigotry informs me that Nikon has an edge over Canon in the final percentage of keepers (Canon being faster, Nikon more accurate).

So if you're committed to photographing static objects and slow moving creatures then please carry on but for a large part of the market the camera having superior AF is a huge advantage. For years Nikon has had the best AF, not that they've marketed or even explained it very well.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I don t expect it to be in any way except size and maybe EVF (if that is important to your work ) better than a D850 .

Agree. The D850 is the gold standard. That's what will be their reference. If they manage to match that, and video quality and AF are up to current demenads, the mirrorless competition should be easy to handle.

 

[iiiNelson]

I believe the V3 had AF fully on par with the original A7R or better. I think we can be pretty sure that the developers at Nikon haven't been sleeping all the way from 2014 till now. They will start with current technology and all the knowledge that they have gathered from the 1 Series and later prototypes.

It would be a waste of time for Nikon to launch a camera that doesn't have AF comparable with the best, and that includes the A9.

The A7R is CDAF only. That shouldn’t be the goal that Nikon aims for AT ALL. IMO an autofocus goal should be at least the A7RII as it has very good autofocus that can be used for a wide variety of shooting. If they can meet where the A7RIII or A7III is then that’ll be even better. If they can reach the A9 the. That would be a feat but that’s to say that they will meet/exceed the performance of the D5’s and I don’t really see that happening - be it for reasons to protect the D5’s or due to technical inability. With Mirrorless it’ll take ONPDAF to achieve the autofocus which is different than the dedicated AF sensors used for DSLR’s.

I’m not saying that Nikon won’t do it but I’d temper my expectations for what the camera will be. I’d be happy to be proven wrong because I believe that real direct competition with Sony (and Canon for that matter) will further push the industry to be better as a whole. I don’t and never considered the Leica SL direct competition for Sony because Leica treated the SL as a niche accesory product for M owners that want to dabble in Mirrorless. Just my opinion though.

 

[Godfrey]

I used to feel this way too. And I mostly photographed static subjects with normal-ish lenses.

About 10 years I decided to read up on Auto-focus and practice using it. Later I got my first professional telephoto lens and pro DSLR (a Nikon D2x). And I was photographing living, moving subjects ~ dancers, with some random running dogs, sports type things, the occasional birdie.

Auto-focus really does work well, especially in the semi-pro Nikon system. I think it's nothing short of amazing watching the camera and lens track a dog running full speed towards the camera through tall grass and I'll still get 90% of the dog's eyes and face in focus. I certainly never could do that with any manual or mirrorless camera, and my brand bigotry informs me that Nikon has an edge over Canon in the final percentage of keepers (Canon being faster, Nikon more accurate).

So if you're committed to photographing static objects and slow moving creatures then please carry on but for a large part of the market the camera having superior AF is a huge advantage. For years Nikon has had the best AF, not that they've marketed or even explained it very well.

One of my subject areas, for many years, has been racing cars and motorcycles at speed on the track. And I used to do a lot of event and theater work as well, dancers and singers on stage, etc. I've invested many hours trying to get the photos I want using autofocus with pro-grade cameras and lenses (Canon, Olympus, Nikon, etc...). And I've always switched back to manual focus because I just wasn't getting what I wanted ... So, while I understand that you're happy with it, amazed by it, whatever, AF simply isn't a solution that works for me and gets me what I want.

I'm retired now from all that fuss, but continue to shoot both static and action subjects. AF simply frustrates me too much of the time to depend upon it. I'd rather be frustrated about a viewfinder that doesn't work as well as I'd like, and work around it when needed. I know I'm probably weird about this, but it is what it is. I'd rather get the results I want, easily, than fight with automation systems over and over again to figure how how to change what I do in order to get the results I want.

G

 

[PeterA]

The A7R is CDAF only. That shouldnÂ’t be the goal that Nikon aims for AT ALL. IMO an autofocus goal should be at least the A7RII as it has very good autofocus that can be used for a wide variety of shooting. If they can meet where the A7RIII or A7III is then thatÂ’ll be even better. If they can reach the A9 the. That would be a feat but thatÂ’s to say that they will meet/exceed the performance of the D5Â’s and I donÂ’t really see that happening - be it for reasons to protect the D5Â’s or due to technical inability. With Mirrorless itÂ’ll take ONPDAF to achieve the autofocus which is different than the dedicated AF sensors used for DSLRÂ’s.

IÂ’m not saying that Nikon wonÂ’t do it but IÂ’d temper my expectations for what the camera will be. IÂ’d be happy to be proven wrong because I believe that real direct competition with Sony (and Canon for that matter) will further push the industry to be better as a whole. I donÂ’t and never considered the Leica SL direct competition for Sony because Leica treated the SL as a niche accessory product for M owners that want to dabble in Mirrorless. Just my opinion though.

As a Leica user, my SL is a better all round camera than my M10 except for one thing - size. Much as I enjoy rangefinder focusing and composing - direct off chip focus is far more accurate for critical focus requirements.

My SL accesses three of the best zooms ever made by any manufacturer, my M10 does not. The SL delivers autofocus my M10 does not. The SL delivers 1/8000th shutter speed my M10 does not - and this becomes an important consideration for those photographers who choose to use fast glass - all my prime lenses are f0.095-f1.4 rated - usually shot wide open and in sunshine f0.95-1.4 is too bright without resort to neutral density filters on a camrea limited to 1/4000th as in the M10.

To suggest that the SL is an accessory product for M users is an interesting opinion - clearly not based on personal experience as an M or SL user.

Now to the Nikon announcement - I am seriously interested in the larger megapixel iteration of this camera. The larger mount size points to Nikon ability to deliver a new range of lenses with potential to produce fast glass and offer hopefully some serious competition to Leica as far as speed goes in primes, - a 50 megapixel version would also make my XID redundant and provide me with some insurance policy in case Leica decides to maintain a 24 megapixel limit on the SL for fear of encroaching on the S system - which to me is dead for ever.

Cheers
Pete

 

[ptomsu]

The larger mount size points to Nikon ability to deliver a new range of lenses with potential to produce fast glass and offer hopefully some serious competition to Leica as far as speed goes in primes, - a 50 megapixel version would also make my XID redundant and provide me with some insurance policy in case Leica decides to maintain a 24 megapixel limit on the SL for fear of encroaching on the S system - which to me is dead for ever.

Interesting to hear that you now conclude the Leica S system is dead for ever (which I have felt for years already) - but I remember times when you sounded much different :toocool:

 

[iiiNelson]

As a Leica user, my SL is a better all round camera than my M10 except for one thing - size. Much as I enjoy rangefinder focusing and composing - direct off chip focus is far more accurate for critical focus requirements.

My SL accesses three of the best zooms ever made by any manufacturer, my M10 does not. The SL delivers autofocus my M10 does not. The SL delivers 1/8000th shutter speed my M10 does not - and this becomes an important consideration for those photographers who choose to use fast glass - all my prime lenses are f0.095-f1.4 rated - usually shot wide open and in sunshine f0.95-1.4 is too bright without resort to neutral density filters on a camrea limited to 1/4000th as in the M10.

To suggest that the SL is an accessory product for M users is an interesting opinion - clearly not based on personal experience as an M or SL user.

Now to the Nikon announcement - I am seriously interested in the larger megapixel iteration of this camera. The larger mount size points to Nikon ability to deliver a new range of lenses with potential to produce fast glass and offer hopefully some serious competition to Leica as far as speed goes in primes, - a 50 megapixel version would also make my XID redundant and provide me with some insurance policy in case Leica decides to maintain a 24 megapixel limit on the SL for fear of encroaching on the S system - which to me is dead for ever.

Cheers
Pete

This was just my opinion my own critique of the SL after trying it out in the Leica Store in DC a few years back. The size didn’t really bother me but it’s the camera I wanted 5-6 years ago when I was still shooting Leica M. I call it an accesory to the M due to the ability to complement the M for my telephoto needs. That’s just how I saw it because for me the M is a great camera for using 24-90mm focal lengths already so I wouldn’t add the SL solely to cover that range personally unless I was putting my M lenses on it.

For me Sony made a better and more capable Mirrorless camera but I can understand why some don’t want one for a variety of reasons. Every balrand has their quirks that may become deal breakers for others and I’ve owned/shot with 4 brands over the last 15 years. I can’t and wouldn’t argue against your points because they’re valid for you but my points were valid for me as well.

 

[Frankly]

It's getting exciting, as a Nikon or Canon higher end mirrorless will probably pack some very nice features in that a smaller brand can't (for the money).

Of course they could have built this camera five years ago....

 

[jdphoto]

Huh, a crappy EVF experience. I've read that somewhere...

 

[SrMphoto]

This was just my opinion my own critique of the SL after trying it out in the Leica Store in DC a few years back. The size didn’t really bother me but it’s the camera I wanted 5-6 years ago when I was still shooting Leica M. I call it an accesory to the M due to the ability to complement the M for my telephoto needs. That’s just how I saw it because for me the M is a great camera for using 24-90mm focal lengths already so I wouldn’t add the SL solely to cover that range personally unless I was putting my M lenses on it.

For me Sony made a better and more capable Mirrorless camera but I can understand why some don’t want one for a variety of reasons. Every balrand has their quirks that may become deal breakers for others and I’ve owned/shot with 4 brands over the last 15 years. I can’t and wouldn’t argue against your points because they’re valid for you but my points were valid for me as well.

It is wrong to judge a camera by the impression in the store (or even using it for a day only). Yes, sometimes there is no other way to judge it, but one should be careful with the critique until you have worked with it. When I saw SL first time at the dealer, I said "no way" I would like it and bought my Leica Q. Several months later, after some thorough study, I decided to purchase the SL and it quickly became one of my favorite cameras.

Only once did I make a mistake purchasing a camera, even after thorough study: A7rII. I should have waited until A7rIII came out.

 

[jduncan]

No, the Nikon V3 had one of the best video AF of its time (better than the GH4). There's no reason to believe that Nikon hasn't continued to develop this feature.

Hi,
I was talking about full frame sensors.
It's maybe that the new camera will be using an Aptina sensor,
if that is the case it could be that it do have the V3 system.

Best regards,

 

[jduncan]

a 50 megapixel version would also make my XID redundant and provide me with some insurance policy in case Leica decides to maintain a 24 megapixel limit on the SL for fear of encroaching on the S system - which to me is dead for ever.

Cheers
Pete

Hi,

Un less the X2D arrives and persuades you to keep the system, until you can upgrade (death by GAS ).

Best regards,

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Hi,
I was talking about full frame sensors.
It's maybe that the new camera will be using an Aptina sensor,
if that is the case it could be that it do have the V3 system.

Best regards,

The V3 showed that Nikon understands AF for mirrorless cameras. If others can make good AF with SOny sensors, I'm sure Nikon can as well. It would be nice if the sensor came from Aptina or others, byt I suspect that it will be Sony.

 

[iiiNelson]

The V3 showed that Nikon understands AF for mirrorless cameras. If others can make good AF with SOny sensors, I'm sure Nikon can as well. It would be nice if the sensor came from Aptina or others, byt I suspect that it will be Sony.

Maybe... but judging by Nikon AF performance in live view and in video modes the cameras take a huge performance hit compared to say Sony or Canon Dual Pixel. I’m not saying they can’t overcome it but I just haven’t seen it yet personally. If I’m being honest Fuji leaves a lot to be desired once the light starts to get low as well in AF performance. It’s one of the things that scared me off of their cameras when I was considering divesting from my Sony kit.

 

[iiiNelson]

It is wrong to judge a camera by the impression in the store (or even using it for a day only). Yes, sometimes there is no other way to judge it, but one should be careful with the critique until you have worked with it. When I saw SL first time at the dealer, I said "no way" I would like it and bought my Leica Q. Several months later, after some thorough study, I decided to purchase the SL and it quickly became one of my favorite cameras.

Only once did I make a mistake purchasing a camera, even after thorough study: A7rII. I should have waited until A7rIII came out.

Maybe but I wasn’t interested in the lenses they had available at the time (the 2 big zooms), the lack of PDAF, or the camera itself in general. I don’t begrudge people that like it but I didn’t... at all really but I admit I would have likely been fond of it circa 2012-13 maybe. The EVF was nice though but I found everything else to be inferior to the performance of my Sony’s that I had in hand at the time personally but as they say to each their own.

 

[D Fuller]

The V3 showed that Nikon understands AF for mirrorless cameras. If others can make good AF with SOny sensors, I'm sure Nikon can as well. It would be nice if the sensor came from Aptina or others, byt I suspect that it will be Sony.

It’s clear that Nikon understands autofocus. They have the best autofocus camera in the world. It’s also clear that they understand mirrorless autofocus. Do they understand it as well as Canon and Sony? We don’t yet know.

Given what Nikon has said, and the Pro cameras it has produced recently, it’s inconceivable to me that Nikon will release a camera with sub-par autofocus. I’d expect them to delay release before doing that.

But what does that mean? The answer hinges on design goals and the interaction of those goals with each other. The best autofocus performance cameras are all medium resolution—20-24Mp: the D5, the A9, the 1DX, and the SL. (I include the SL because, while it doesn’t track as well as the other three, it has the fastest single-shot focus acquisition I’ve ever experienced.) Is that just coincidence? I don’t know, but I suspect not, because the A73 has better autofocus than the A7R3.

I think the design choices will be crucially important; I expect two cameras, initially, with different goals. I expect one of those to be a D850-class camera with similar performance and similar price. I really do expect it to be a tour-de-force that establishes Nikon as a player in mirrorless cameras. But what will the other be? Putting my marketer’s hat on, I would expect a less-capable, medium resolution, but lower priced camera competitive with the A73. But I could certainly be off-base there. If they want to make a splash in the video space, a low-res low-light camera would be a possibility, but I think that unlikely, given Nikon’s history. And I think an A9 or D5 class camera us unlikely given the price points we’ve been hearing about for the initial release.

Autofocus performance depends a lot on lenses too. One of the reasons for the Leica SL’s performance with its zooms is the two-motor design. The trade off for great af performance may be lenses that are bigger than many would like. That’s also been one of Sony’s challenges. Leica’s answer to the lens size problem in the CL is software-corrected lens designs. I hope Nikon doesn’t go that way. (Or at least not very far that way.)

And then there’s video AF—something that nobody does well enough, but Canon does better than Sony, Panasonic does better than either of them, and Leica and Nikon are unusable. Will Nikon crack that nut? Do they even care about it?

It’ll be interesting to see what this first round of cameras delivers. I expect we’ll all be delighted—and disappointed.

 

[tcdeveau]

More leaked images:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/05/another-nikon-mirrorless-camera-picture-leaked.aspx/

:watch:

 

[Steve P.]

Here's a thought, since we're in the mood to speculate: this camera looks like it might be a decently sized full-frame with a brand new mount. What if, instead of offering a new set of lenses from the ground up, Nikon were to take a leaf out of Sigma's book and offer a conversion service whereby the customer could choose to have the lens of his/her choice from the entire Nikon range fitted with the new mount? There are probably a dozen reasons why this wouldn't or couldn't work but what the hell, we're just talking. What say you?

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

More leaked images:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/05/another-nikon-mirrorless-camera-picture-leaked.aspx/

:watch:

Any resistance is futile. It's not a question of if, but when more or less every member of this forum will have one :ROTFL:

It looks like a G9, which is good, but obviously the sensor is four times the size. The price is probably twice the size or more, but I don't think that will matter to the gearheads here, me included.