DP Review Forum to Close

[buildbot]

Well Nvidia just announced AI in the cloud so we should be able to train our own LLMs based off of forum know how

Bing is actually pretty decent at this right now with its new GPT4 interface. Though it did make up some Sinar backs and got some sensor sizes wrong when I was playing with it.

 

[mristuccia]

No law can prevent downloading a copy for private use.
That site/forum has never been my cup of tea, so I will not mirror it locally, but I can understand someone could be interested.

There are a lot of tools that are able to copy/mirror a whole site. SiteSucker, to name a free one that I use on macOS.

 

[Abstraction]

I'm going to miss the DPReview medium format forum a lot.

I had many wide-ranging and interesting conversations about photography rather than just gear with members over the last few years. We don't do that much here on GetDPI. Olaf tried a few times in other sub-forums, but it doesn't seem to have worked.

I'm also going to miss the enormous, deep technical knowledge of some of the members. Many of those conversations were over my head, but the parts I could follow added enormously to my understanding of how digital sensors work.

Ultimately it's a business decision for the owners, but this is a case where a business decision looks like vandalism. As is usually the case, the people who made the decision are incapable of seeing and understanding what they're destroying.

I would much rather discuss photography over gear. Alas, very few people want to talk about that, many preferring to delve into the *this lens vs. that lens" drivel

 

[Paul2660]

Forums are what you make of them. Their camera comparison tools were unique and invaluable and I used them often. Sad data base and tech behind those tables will be gone forever. Or so it seems.

Paul

 

[diggles]

There is talk about gear on every photography forum I know of. Gear is not the be all end all, but when trying to accomplish a photographic goal gear can be quite important.

It's also expensive and time consuming to try new gear. The information gleaned from others that have tried certain combinations is quite valuable in my opinion.

 

[KC_2020]

Forums are what you make of them. Their camera comparison tools were unique and invaluable and I used them often. Sad data base and tech behind those tables will be gone forever. Or so it seems.

Paul

Maybe you missed this effort to archive the entire site, posted a page back in this thread.

 

[TechTalk]

It's disappointing to read how this getDPI forum, along with its participants, is being described by some in the DP Review Medium Format/Jim Kasson Talk Forum. Jim is looking for a new forum home which I presume he wants to run and dominate as he has at DP Review.

To quote Jim Kasson: "I've not felt welcome at getDPI. There seems to be institutional antipathy towards quantitative testing there." The other comments regarding getDPI's medium format forum and its participants can be found in the link below if anyone is interested.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/What's next, an interim report

 

[rdeloe]

It's disappointing to read how this getDPI forum, along with its participants, is being described by some in the DP Review Medium Format/Jim Kasson Talk Forum. Jim is looking for a new forum home which I presume he wants to run and dominate as he has at DP Review.

To quote Jim Kasson: "I've not felt welcome at getDPI. There seems to be institutional antipathy towards quantitative testing there." The other comments regarding getDPI's medium format forum and its participants can be found in the link below if anyone is interested.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/What's next, an interim report

TechTalk, you and Jim clearly don't get along. You both have a lot of deep knowledge, but you seem to get under each others' skins. I respect both of you for your knowledge (but I've never been interested in getting involved in your quarrels).

I imagine Jim started that thread on DPReview, and made that point, because he saw posts in this thread -- which were not exactly a welcome mat to him, or to the people at DPReview who use Fuji cameras. Some posts are downright hostile.

The cultures on the various photography forums are genuinely different, and that's not a bad thing. I participate in the ones that attract people I like interacting with. I enjoy interacting with many of the people on the GetDPI medium format forum, the DPReview medium format forum and the printing forum (also a huge loss by the way), and some parts of FredMiranda. There's not a lot of overlap among these three communities -- so naturally there will be some friction when they are forced to mix together because DPReview closed. I hope we can sort it out because I value all three communities, as much for their differences as anything else.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Hmm, interesting.

 

[TechTalk]

TechTalk, you and Jim clearly don't get along. You both have a lot of deep knowledge, but you seem to get under each others' skins. I respect both of you for your knowledge (but I've never been interested in getting involved in your quarrels).

I have no problem with Jim or his desire to share his knowledge and opinions. I think it's a good thing to interact with different individuals, with different opinions, using different cameras; who share their individual preferences, techniques, experience, etc. His point of view did not get under my skin. I had no issue with him presenting his viewpoint or with anyone else expressing theirs. What did get under my skin was moderation being utilized to limit the depth or frequency of opinions which differed from those of a couple of the moderators. Unfortunately, my point of view was too different, too often, from their own; and since I couldn't be intimidated nor bullied into submission, I was persona non grata to them.

I've participated in multiple forums. The DP Review Medium Format Talk forum was the only one where, to my knowledge and in my experience, moderation was used to harass; silence; and drive out individuals because a moderator had a personal distaste for, or disagreement with, a point of view or a participant. Others, some of whom I knew and some I didn't, wrote to me with very similar experiences to mine. These things occurred behind the scenes, outside of public view, so it would not have been seen or have had any effect on others who enjoyed their experience.

I'm happy that most found it valuable and pleasurable to participate. I cannot say that it was pleasurable for me because the moderation tactics, aimed in my direction, gave me every indication of being designed and implemented to encourage my leaving out of frustration. That is now just a memory, from which it is easy to move on toward more pleasant pursuits. I wish nothing but the best to all of the folks participating in the DPR forums. Whatever forums they participate in going forward, I hope that individuals will be encouraged to freely share their points of view.

 

[TechTalk]

The cultures on the various photography forums are genuinely different, and that's not a bad thing. I participate in the ones that attract people I like interacting with. I enjoy interacting with many of the people on the GetDPI medium format forum, the DPReview medium format forum and the printing forum (also a huge loss by the way), and some parts of FredMiranda. There's not a lot of overlap among these three communities -- so naturally there will be some friction when they are forced to mix together because DPReview closed. I hope we can sort it out because I value all three communities, as much for their differences as anything else.

I've enjoyed discussions with you and many others across multiple forums. I've also found interesting new people in each forum. As I've said before, I like variety in people, point of view, and photo gear — it keeps life interesting!

So, I agree with you in the value of exploring different communities because they are different — as a result, you discover new people, sharing their knowledge and individual personal experience. Vive la différence

 

[SrMphoto]

I really wish Jim would join GetDPi actively and give it a chance.

 

[steveash]

It's sad that someone should not feel welcome within a community. There are different places for different interests and I'd hope they are all inclusive of different viewpoints and interests. Not everyone has a passion for quantitative testing, it's not my cup of tea but it has its place and people should have a place to discuss their interest. I don't spend enough time here to call it MY community but I feel the welcoming attitude and broad range of subjective discussions are in my opinion a strength of this forum.

 

[hcubell]

I really wish Jim would join GetDPi actively and give it a chance.

Jim is completely free to participate on an equal footing like everyone else who posts here and share his knowledge and opinions. However, I do not think he is looking to "participate." I assume he wants to be the officially designated moderator at his next stop, which, based upon the way DPR Medium Format Forum was run, means he wants to control the discourse completely and have the right to censor or even ban those who do not obediently fall into line with his views. I believe differences of opinion are valuable and should be respected, and not treated with arrogant dismissiveness. If you think I am being hyperbolic, I would suggest that you look at the way TechTalk's quite benign piece of advice on disengaging IBIS on a GFX when it is used on a tripod was treated in this thread: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4705641. This is just one of many examples where TechTalk was treated that way by the Moderators. And, this is only what is on the public record. We can only imagine what transpired off the record.
TechTalk's only sins were (1) he/she was too smart and experienced to be be bullied into submission, and (2) he/she always failed to take the bait and call out the Moderators, which constrained their ability to ban him outright.

 

[SrMphoto]

Jim is completely free to participate on an equal footing like everyone else who posts here and share his knowledge and opinions. However, I do not think he is looking to "participate." I assume he wants to be the officially designated moderator at his next stop, which, based upon the way DPR Medium Format Forum was run, means he wants to control the discourse completely and have the right to censor or even ban those who do not obediently fall into line with his views.
<snip>

I have been following the DPR MF forum intensely for many years, and your speculations do not make sense nor reflect the state of the MF forum. Wherever Jim now goes, he will not be the moderator either. Moderation is a thankless job that I do not wish upon anybody.

GetDPI can only gain from Jim Kasson sharing his thoughts and work in this forum. Very few reliable sources are so often quoted as his blog, and rarely can you rely on a reply as correct and complete (although often too brief) as his. This does not mean that he should not be challenged and can be wrong and learn from others.

 

[Abstraction]

Jim is completely free to participate on an equal footing like everyone else who posts here and share his knowledge and opinions. However, I do not think he is looking to "participate." I assume he wants to be the officially designated moderator at his next stop, which, based upon the way DPR Medium Format Forum was run, means he wants to control the discourse completely and have the right to censor or even ban those who do not obediently fall into line with his views. I believe differences of opinion are valuable and should be respected, and not treated with arrogant dismissiveness. If you think I am being hyperbolic, I would suggest that you look at the way TechTalk's quite benign piece of advice on disengaging IBIS on a GFX when it is used on a tripod was treated in this thread: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4705641. This is just one of many examples where TechTalk was treated that way by the Moderators. And, this is only what is on the public record. We can only imagine what transpired off the record.
TechTalk's only sins were (1) he/she was too smart and experienced to be be bullied into submission, and (2) he/she always failed to take the bait and call out the Moderators, which constrained their ability to ban him outright.

I've read the whole thread and I didn't read it that way. There was a difference of opinion and the debate was lively, but I didn't think that anyone was rude or that Jim flexed his mod muscles.

 

[rdeloe]

In every organization, group, team or community I've belonged to, getting to this stage -- talking openly about someone rather than to or with someone -- has been a bad sign.

The usual next step on the way to the breakdown of the group is expecting members to pick sides, followed by losing members who aren't interested in the drama.

Sometimes groups can recover by not engaging in the behaviour that will lead to the breakdown. The idea is, "If it hurts when you do that, then don't do that."

 

[Ray Harrison]

We're all individuals with our own points of view. Sometimes things get heated. That's how families are . Sometimes as individuals we should just take a step back and simply listen - I know that's true with me. I know I get on my high horse. I should often get off of it and walk on solid ground. Honestly, I've learned a lot from Jim and TechTalk and others over the years in this and other forums - and I mean a lot! I love different points of view. These points of view help me grow. I may or may nor agree at any given time, but that's totally OK. I may say the wrong thing, I may offend without intending to, but I hope I'm always willing to listen, at least eventually.

 

[TechTalk]

I've read the whole thread and I didn't read it that way. There was a difference of opinion and the debate was lively, but I didn't think that anyone was rude or that Jim flexed his mod muscles.

Speaking solely for myself — I've only described my experience with moderation, as practiced in the DPR Medium Format forum, in general terms; sparing readers from any gritty details. One reason for that is, I didn't want to see this thread degenerate into a he-said-she-said contest or debate. I would note, however, I said: These things occurred behind the scenes, outside of public view, so it would not have been seen or have had any effect on others who enjoyed their experience. Any questions beyond that will have to be asked privately, as I will not discuss any details publicly.

For most, I have no doubt participation was useful and pleasurable. For some, the environment behind the scenes was toxic. The experience was, as experiences often are, an individual one. Jim said he has not felt welcome at getDPI. I doubt that has been the experience of most participants here. I and others were made to feel unwelcome by a couple of the moderators at DP Review's Medium Format forum. As I've said before, I'm sure that wasn't how most participants there felt.

The only post I made at DPR which I regret was a thread I started with a link to a Hasselblad X2D 100C review. The woman who wrote the review illustrated it with loads of sample pictures, including a large group of unedited sample images taken under a variety of lighting and contrast conditions. I found those particularly interesting and useful. The discussion which followed contained little regrding her experience with the camera or the images she produced. A large portion of the commentary, in my personal opinion, was a mean-spirited repetitive attack over her use of the word simplistic when she meant to say simple and a couple of phrases which could have been better worded. Moderator Doppler9000 said of her review: "It is almost physically painful to read."

Much of the commentary was not what I saw as constructive criticism, but mocking and ridicule. I felt somewhat guilty for exposing her to it by posting a link to her review. I thought the rush to pile on was undeserved and frankly disgusting. Others saw it as just another good discussion. Just as eyewitnesses recall the same scene differently, participants and observers will have different reactions to the same environment or event. It appears that sometimes, one person's perception of toxicity can be another's idea of helpful discussion.

This ends any further public discussion by me of the moderation or environment which existed at the soon to be closed DP Review.

 

[TechTalk]

Wherever Jim now goes, he will not be the moderator either.

For those wishing to follow Jim to a new forum, he is now the moderator at this medium format forum. He announced this at DP Review today.