Nikon mirrorless ?

[glenerrolrd]

So what if Sony fabricates the sensors ? At a minimum Nikon builds the camera firmware and makes the critical decisions that tune the raw files . They do a great job if the D850 and D750 are examples of their products . Should be no worry here ...IQ attributes from the camera will be best in class . And of you compare the D850 files to the Sony A 7 R 3 ....the Nikon files are better .

Most of the really important aspects of the new design will require “hands on” . How is the build quality ? same standard as the Nikon D850 ? How is the AF ? How is the EVF ? .....did I miss any .

Sure I wish Nikon had the eye tracking AF capability and yes I would prefer two SD cards to the XQD .

What I expect from Nikon is a well made competent mirrorless product with eventually a quite nice set of lenses .

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Clearly these Nikon threads are invaded by people who have their daily walk in the Sony threads.
I dont know what mental/psychological needs are being covered by this behavior.

thorkil

The mental/psychological needs of a photographer. "Brand loyalty" is nonsense other than for compatibility with existing equipment. Sony users' viewpoints are as valid as those of Nikon users. Cameras are objects, things, made of metal and plastic. I like many Nikon cameras, not because it says "Nikon" on them, but because they fill their intended purpose well, at least for me. At the moment, I'm mostly a Panasonic user because Panasonic cameras do a good job for me too, and at a lower cost than the Nikons I used to own.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

It does seem that we have reached a design point, both in terms of sensor design and lens design, that makes it extremely difficult for any one manufacturer to
‘ hit it out of the ballpark ‘.

Nikon is no exception. They had to bring out something to be competitive and also
Be relevant in the market place. They did it with this Z6/Z7 offerings. Their first
Iteration.

Maybe, we had much higher expectations for this Nikon offering.
Nikon has brought us down to earth, so to speak.

I wish them success. As I wish all camera manufacturers and users success with their choice/s.

When I started photography back in the seventies, I used an OM-1. My to best friends with cameras at the time had a Nikkormat and an FTb respectively. We had many long discussions about the differences betwen those cameras, but the reality was that, besides the smaller size of the Olympus, little of significance set them apart.

After the initial experimenting during the transition from film to digital, most cameras have become increasingly similar, although much more different than the three mentioned above. That's what happens as technology matures. I have problems seeing what Nikon could have done to revolutionise the mirrorless market. All manufacturers have access to the same technology and all of them do their best to utilise that technology to the fullest. The differences are in the UI and design, and those are the reasons for our choices.

And brand loyalty, which is as rational as saying that I'll sit on the stone over there because I sat on it yesterday, and that is the best stone ever, and nothing can change that.

 

[D Fuller]

So what if Sony fabricates the sensors ? At a minimum Nikon builds the camera firmware and makes the critical decisions that tune the raw files . They do a great job if the D850 and D750 are examples of their products . Should be no worry here ...IQ attributes from the camera will be best in class . And of you compare the D850 files to the Sony A 7 R 3 ....the Nikon files are better .

Most of the really important aspects of the new design will require “hands on” . How is the build quality ? same standard as the Nikon D850 ? How is the AF ? How is the EVF ? .....did I miss any .

Sure I wish Nikon had the eye tracking AF capability and yes I would prefer two SD cards to the XQD .

What I expect from Nikon is a well made competent mirrorless product with eventually a quite nice set of lenses .

I agree with about all of this.

I'm not particularly interested in Nikon replacing the SLR. I'm interested in adding a set of capabilities that are different from the SLRs. I don't expect one camera to do everything, and in fact, the attempt often gets in the way of cameras being "right" for some of those things.

I'm interested in lenses. The early reviews of the quality of the new S lenses is very encouraging. I am disappointed that Nikon haven't been more open with their autofocus spec, so that the ecosystem could grow faster, but I love what I'm reading about the quality of the new lenses. I hope Zeiss makes a set of the Loxias for it. I hope someone makes a PL adapter for it really soon.

I'm not really looking to this camera for sports or birding. The SLRs I own are plenty capable for those things, and will be for some time.

I like what I see in this camera for street: modest size, high-quality lenses. I've been working with a zeiss 16-35 on an a7r3. It's an f4 and it's fine, so to me, the trade-off of speed for size makes sense as long as the IQ is brilliant. And the primes are fast enough--at least for now.

The single-card decision is unfortunate. It's a PR mistake of significant proportions. But I've never had a card of any kind fail in any camera: CF SD Mini SD, Micro SD, RED SSD... Never happened. So it won't stop me from ordering a camera.

It has the potential to be one of the best small video cameras out there. Log and 10-bit 4:2:2 means a lot to me. It means two orders of magnitude more color gradability than my Sony. If focus for video works as they are saying, that alone is reason to buy.

So that's kind of a bunch of random thoughts, and may change as we learn more, but it's my POV.

 

[SrMphoto]

As someone who has preordered a Z7, I have been gobbling up information available online. IMO, the best information can be found on Thom Hogan's sansmirror.com.

Z-mount is the start of a new lens generation, looking forward to seeing what Nikon can come up with. Meanwhile, D850 remains irreplaceable.

 

[SrMphoto]

B&H has specs on their site. Of course, specs are one thing, the reality is other. Will compare both cameras once Z7 comes in.

Sony a7rIII vs Nikon Z7
Pixels: 42.4 vs 45.7
Aspect ratio: "3:2, 16:9" vs "1:1, 3:2, 4:5, 16:9"
Autofocus phase detection points: 399 vs 493
Display screen: 1,440k dots vs 2,100K dots
ISO sensitivity: 100-32000 vs 64-25600

Other things missing in Sony and that I care about: lossless compress raw, focus bracketing, multiple exposures, top status display.

 

[rayyan]

The question one needs to consider remains the same.
Does it add to ones arsenal in some way lacking with ones current holdings.

How much is gained by the additional cost outlay?
Is this a want vs need?

Nothing wrong with wanting a new camera.
And nothing wrong with filling a camera requirement either.

No right or wrong answer for the above.

Each individual has to decide for oneself.

My most important criteria shall always remain if it helps me in some
way as a travel photog.

And more importantly, shall it make me a better
photog.

In that respect, would it be better for me, than my Df or the D750?

It would be difficult for me to give a definite answer either way. Without laying out
my cash.

I, personally, would travel somewhere with that money and
my simple Df.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

The question one needs to consider remains the same.
Does it add to ones arsenal in some way lacking with ones current holdings.

How much is gained by the additional cost outlay?
Is this a want vs need?

Nothing wrong with wanting a new camera.
And nothing wrong with filling a camera requirement either.

No right or wrong answer for the above.

Each individual has to decide for oneself.

My most important criteria shall always remain if it helps me in some
way as a travel photog.

And more importantly, shall it make me a better
photog.

In that respect, would it be better for me, than my Df or the D750?

It would be difficult for me to give a definite answer either way. Without laying out
my cash.

I, personally, would travel somewhere with that money and
my simple Df.

Well said, Rayyan, and let me add: The toughest competitor for the Z6 will in my view be whatever replaces the D750. The two cameras fitted with a 50mm f/1.8 each are more or less the same weight and size. Give the D750 a better viewfinder (the one from the D850 or the Df), somewhat improved ergonomics and an even better sensor, and the choice between the two will be really, realy hard.

 

[Photon42]

The question one needs to consider remains the same.
Does it add to ones arsenal in some way lacking with ones current holdings.

How much is gained by the additional cost outlay?
Is this a want vs need?

Nothing wrong with wanting a new camera.
And nothing wrong with filling a camera requirement either.

No right or wrong answer for the above.

Each individual has to decide for oneself.

My most important criteria shall always remain if it helps me in some
way as a travel photog.

And more importantly, shall it make me a better
photog.

In that respect, would it be better for me, than my Df or the D750?

It would be difficult for me to give a definite answer either way. Without laying out
my cash.

I, personally, would travel somewhere with that money and
my simple Df.

As a travel photographer, I'd like the small zoom, USB charging and the tilt screen (with a proper AF) for waist level shots. The EVF is reporting to be brillant and will hopefully give me pleasure and comfort to use my older Nikkors. Battery live does not look too good on paper, but the specs need to be put in perspective of my usage pattern.

I do not care for a second identical card slot, but then, photography is definitely not my profession. I would guess that the choice was made because the XQD standard is less error prone with a much lesser defect rate than SD/CF cards. After all, every circuit can fail in a camera. And there is no redundancy, either. I clearly get that two slots are better for many than one. I just personally do not care. Almost all of my cameras run on a single slots.

It does not cook coffee, either, I hurry to admit. Good excuse to keep the cezve

Cheers
Ivo

 

[pegelli]

Clearly these Nikon threads are invaded by people who have their daily walk in the Sony threads.
I dont know what mental/psychological needs are being covered by this behavior.
Clearly no one have got the apparently alarming Nikon, which is causing all this fuss, fear or "interest", in their hand. Am I the only one who have had it in the hands?
I have heard Sony menu systems are demanding a very patient bookkeepers mind to handle, that has kept myself away from Sony, also the fact that getting things repaired can be uphill.
Solely based on my own experience, a camera to me, has to be rather intuitive, else I loose the interest.
I walked into the store very skeptical but walked out very optimistic.
My camera dont have to playing chess with me, That I will not use my brain for. I have other complicated things to use my brain for, so my camera should for gods sake not be filled with complicated options, my brain dont want to investigate in..
I just take simple pictures, and I want my camera to be rather simple helping me that way. My ambitions are not that huge camera-wise, but still my ambitions and dreams are of taking dreamy pictures - with a simple camera,
that I can find out, and which can find out of me. Nikon has made me turning back to its cameras, because I can rely on it. I feel confident. I feel a friendly and usefull connection.
The Nikon Z 6/7 are very nice to hold, very nice to look through, the deals and buttons are so delicate to put your finger on, the touchscreen is perhaps the first one I might use, because it was in no way challenging, simple, easy to use, which was a joy.
Viewfinder good to look through, AF-points nice in appearance, nice too shift, easy going, superb shutter sound, everything gave not just a solid feeling, but a delicate and exquisite one.
And that is enough for me.
I'm not interested in whether its better than a Sony, because Sony is not interesting for me. So I'm not interested in hearing how bad this and that in this camera is compared to a Sony. Im interested in what my hands and brain tells me
Im interested in this Nikon, not as a whole and complete system, but as a small modest start on a "friendly" mirrorless, to me...
thorkil

With all due respect, nobody in this thread "bashed" the Z6/Z7 anywhere close to how the sony's were bashed in the Sony forum (by non-users, both frequency and degree of bashing). And if people complained about that they were painted as "Sony fanboys" who didn't know what a "good" (read Canikon) camera looked like. To the contrary, people here pointed out differences pro and con vs. Sony in a relatively polite way and if you're not interested in those perspectives my advice is to not read them. I'm personally (just like Jurgen) brand agnostic and interested in any mirrorless camera and I don't think that the fact I'm currenty using Sony disqualifies me to post my thoughts in this thread.
I hope you enjoy your Z6 or Z7 and take many good pictures with it to share here and life is too short to worry about people who have a different opinion.

And the fact you take another dig at Sony based on "what you heard" rather than personal experience is exactly the same behaviour you are opposing. I don't mind that at all but to me it does show that your complaint has a high "pot and kettle" aspect to it.

 

[Thorkil]

Pegelli, Jürgen, Jørgen and... re-complaints and viewpoints are hereby accepted :grin:
well, for my part, I have realized that time on earth is limited. So I think I have made an agreement with myself not to do any more costly and wild experiments gearwise.
Even though I like the pictures in the Sony thread a lot.
I'll stay put with my Fuji X-T2, the Df and all the lenses. The Df is nothing less than a treasure. We just have such a nice life together. And my GR is lying there smiling, just waiting in excitement for the new to take over in fall.
I have not at all fully tried out the X-T2 or the Df, only limited, so I have to give them more attention.
I like the X-T2, but its only 70% perfect, the Df is 80%, and I forecast the Z6 to be 90%, and so will the new GR will be 85% :watch:
If I only could put the Df inside the X-T2, I would be 100% satisfied (well perhaps with 24Mp but with the soft-Df-way to render). So the Z6 will be the nearest thing I could get to that dream-combo,
just as a supplement, and with a very few lenses, and seldom with the adapter..
thorkil

 

[k-hawinkler]

I own Leica(1 camera), Nikon(5 cameras), Olympus(5 cameras), and Sony gear (6 cameras), i.e. ILC cameras and lenses, lots of lenses. I even own a Canon G3 that still works. The two cameras I use most often and rely on are an Olympus E-M1.2 and a Sony A9.

The Sony A9 is the best camera I have ever owned although it doesn’t have the most pixels and wasn’t the most expensive. I have plenty of native lenses for it, but also adapt Leica and Nikon lenses on it. My A9 and A7r.2 have the advantage of giving me autofocus even for manual only Leica and Nikon lenses. The new Nikon mirrorless cameras won’t do that nor apparently will they feature Eye-AF that I got accustomed to rely on.

So for my personal situation the Nikon Z cameras would be a step in the wrong direction. However, a typical Nikon user may very well be in the target group for the Z cameras and I wish those folks lots of fun with their gear.

 

[Vivek]

Likely, i own more Nikon lenses than some of the self proclaimed Nikon users here. Some of the old Ikon DSLRs are also still with me.

The Z is interesting to me. The system has to mature (will take about an year or so). I hope it does well so that I will have an option in the near future.

I own Leica(1 camera), Nikon(5 cameras), Olympus(5 cameras), and Sony gear (6 cameras), i.e. ILC cameras and lenses, lots of lenses. I even own a Canon G3 that still works. The two cameras I use most often and rely on are an Olympus E-M1.2 and a Sony A9.

The Sony A9 is the best camera I have ever owned although it doesn’t have the most pixels and wasn’t the most expensive. I have plenty of native lenses for it, but also adapt Leica and Nikon lenses on it. My A9 and A7r.2 have the advantage of giving me autofocus even for manual only Leica and Nikon lenses. The new Nikon mirrorless cameras won’t do that nor apparently will they feature Eye-AF that I got accustomed to rely on.

So for my personal situation the Nikon Z cameras would be a step in the wrong direction. However, a typical Nikon user may very well be in the target group for the Z cameras and I wish those folks lots of fun with their gear.

 

[jdphoto]

Having two card slots is imperative for pro use regardless of how reliable they are.
Nikon has alienated a sizeable market share by this omission, imo.

 

[iiiNelson]

With all due respect, nobody in this thread "bashed" the Z6/Z7 anywhere close to how the sony's were bashed in the Sony forum (by non-users, both frequency and degree of bashing). And if people complained about that they were painted as "Sony fanboys" who didn't know what a "good" (read Canikon) camera looked like. To the contrary, people here pointed out differences pro and con vs. Sony in a relatively polite way and if you're not interested in those perspectives my advice is to not read them. I'm personally (just like Jurgen) brand agnostic and interested in any mirrorless camera and I don't think that the fact I'm currenty using Sony disqualifies me to post my thoughts in this thread.
I hope you enjoy your Z6 or Z7 and take many good pictures with it to share here and life is too short to worry about people who have a different opinion.

And the fact you take another dig at Sony based on "what you heard" rather than personal experience is exactly the same behaviour you are opposing. I don't mind that at all but to me it does show that your complaint has a high "pot and kettle" aspect to it.

Yeah one could possibly argue that if there was no A7/9 then there wouldn’t be a Z6/7. Canon and Nikon to slow roll Mirrorless development and continue pushing FF DSLR’s for the foreseeable future as only Micro 4/3 (and maybe Fuji) would be pushing Mirrorless Cameras.

I agree fully with your statement and I am also mostly brand agnostic to using what works best for me. I currently am primarily Sony now but I’ve used Leica, Canon, and Panasonic as primary systems in the past. Currently I use Sony and Panasonic (alongside my Minolta SRT202 and Mamiya C330 TLR) so I technically am running 4 systems but most often reach for the Sony because there’s not really anything that it can’t do.

I am/was genuinely interested in what Nikon was going to release if for no other reason than to see the market advance. It’s unlikely I’d ever buy a Nikon camera without them switching the direction the camera mounts, focuses, etc. but I also realize that’s a highly subjective nitpick... just happens to be the biggest deal breaker for me.

 

[ptomsu]

The current state of Z6/Z7 seems to be dictated by Nikon not wanting to kill their DSLR sales - which one could have expected but hey, I was not thinking it would influence their willingness for necessary and new implementations - say new larger battery and mandatory 2 card slots. Actually the single card slot seem to be a result of trying to keep the new mirrorless Nikon's clearly below their higher end DSLR offerings - just a shame because there would have been enough real estate to implement 2 slots.

I was hoping for a more open minded approach as this limits somehow competitiveness against Sony. On the other hand I talked today to my Nikon dealer in Vienna and he had already three orders in for the Z7 and one for the Z6 - just one day after announcement and most are existing Nikon shooters. This shows that Nikon shooters are of this kind of breed that easily jump on this new bandwagon because it is simply Nikon and if this is similar around the world then Nikon should have already a huge hit with what they have implemented now.

On the other hand I am a bit surprised to see/read many reviews of hard core Nikon DSLR shooters and ambassadors who instantly praise the Z6/Z7 immediately forgetting how militant they have been only a few moths ago against mirrorless in general - like for example an OVF is ALWAYS better than a EVF :banghead:

At least this all together makes it suddenly much easier to interpret typical high praises from anyone - most are not honest but simply repeating what the general mind is ..... :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:

I will most likely pass on these cameras for now mainly not only due to not met expectations.

 

[Elderly]

Re: Nikon mirrorless

It didn't take long for this to appear :grin:. https://www.captiongenerator.com/1074652/Nikon-Z6-mirrorless-launch

 

[glenerrolrd]

Having two card slots is imperative for pro use regardless of how reliable they are.
Nikon has alienated a sizeable market share by this omission, imo.

Are pros still a sizable market share for mirrorless ILC ? I guess you would have to define what category of professional photography you were considering .

The Z line is intended to be complimentary to the established D products . ...which in many cases are still better options for professionals .

 

[SrMphoto]

Having two card slots is imperative for pro use regardless of how reliable they are.
Nikon has alienated a sizeable market share by this omission, imo.

Preferable yes, but imperative?

You can use a two card setup in several ways. Only if you use the second card as a backup is a two-card system essential, for everything else, it is a convenience (separating JPG/RAW, video/still, overflow). All pros that I know (none of them event photographers) use the second card as backup only.

I prefer the robustness and speed of one XQD card to the convenience of a second (overflow) card. I would never use the second card as a backup though(nature/landscape photography): often the speed of the second card slot is not the same, and managing cards becomes more complicated in the field. An XQD card with a second emergency overflow card would be nice, though.

 

[iiiNelson]

The current state of Z6/Z7 seems to be dictated by Nikon not wanting to kill their DSLR sales - which one could have expected but hey, I was not thinking it would influence their willingness for necessary and new implementations - say new larger battery and mandatory 2 card slots. Actually the single card slot seem to be a result of trying to keep the new mirrorless Nikon's clearly below their higher end DSLR offerings - just a shame because there would have been enough real estate to implement 2 slots.

I was hoping for a more open minded approach as this limits somehow competitiveness against Sony. On the other hand I talked today to my Nikon dealer in Vienna and he had already three orders in for the Z7 and one for the Z6 - just one day after announcement and most are existing Nikon shooters. This shows that Nikon shooters are of this kind of breed that easily jump on this new bandwagon because it is simply Nikon and if this is similar around the world then Nikon should have already a huge hit with what they have implemented now.

On the other hand I am a bit surprised to see/read many reviews of hard core Nikon DSLR shooters and ambassadors who instantly praise the Z6/Z7 immediately forgetting how militant they have been only a few moths ago against mirrorless in general - like for example an OVF is ALWAYS better than a EVF :banghead:

At least this all together makes it suddenly much easier to interpret typical high praises from anyone - most are not honest but simply repeating what the general mind is ..... :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:

I will most likely pass on these cameras for now mainly not only due to not met expectations.

Well it’s somewhat smart in the short term that they released cameras in these specs because many Nikon shooters are clearly pretty firmly in the DSLR camp. They may want SOME Mirrorless features (like OSPDAF, better video capability, and a platform to use all their old lenses on with focus peaking/WYSIWYG, etc.) but they may not plan to switch to Mirrorless until the system is fleshed out and that’ll probably be right about the time Nikon introduces their 2nd generation bodies and/or their pro/sports models to compete with the A9 camera(s) directly. It’ll likely be the same formula Sony (and other Mirrorless makers) took and incorporate lessons learned at owners provide feedback. Obviously that likely mean Nikon is working on a next generation battery design that can provide dual duty for say a D6/D600/D900 (and perhaps those will be the last major DSLR’s we see) as Nikon can drop the price on the Z6/7 and get rid of the value and entry level lines like the D3xxx/D5xxx/D7xxx Cameras. At that point it’ll be Mirrorless and DSLR FF Cameras only pretty much more than likely. We see Nikon continuing the production of the F6 well beyond its greatest days but there are film shooters that will always want that old school quirky body.

Now the BIG gamble is that people that were already on the fence (who are largely brand agnostic) may not stay with Nikon and move onto a competing system - and that should be a very real concern for Nikon. I don’t think the company will ever really go away but more massive losses of market share may eventually push them to a niche brand like say Leica. It’ll have the brand loyalists no doubt but it would likely continue on making good cameras for a specific clientele.