Phase One IQ5 – Sony 247 MPX – 3:2 – will you get it?

[Paul Spinnler]

No I dip in and out - but I figured post Summer is time to pick up the discussion around what’s imminent.

We can let it rest until it’s announced, but the message is essentially 2025 will finally be a year with a bit of movement in the sensor landscape which has been long due given how fast the market evolved.

I still remember the days where Kodak and Dalsa were competing - nice to compare different colour impressions of sensors back then - nowadays Sony sets the tone and the whole industry marches after it. Times have changed so much in the image sensor space that a new product like that is noteworthy

 

[Alan]

I like to stay on the leeward side of new tech progression. So, I’ll be looking for deals on the previous generation (IQ4) stuff from those who want to step off the upgrade treadmill.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The results are interesting - c.20% would be ok to upgrade and another 30% if it is not 3:2.

Goes to show that 3:2, ie the chip dimensions, is a strong sales factor they need to watch out for.

 

[hcubell]

The results are interesting - c.20% would be ok to upgrade and another 30% if it is not 3:2.

Goes to show that 3:2, ie the chip dimensions, is a strong sales factor they need to watch out for.

I read it differently. It looks nobody is all in with purchasing the new back if it Is 3:2. Only one person would buy if it's 3:2 but only if they could get a "good deal." Moreover, if the back is 3:2 and 200MP when cropped to 4:5, how many will buy it if Fuji and Hasselblad offer a 4:5 GFX and X3D (and Hasselblad offers a 4:5 MF back) at 180MP?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The backs from Hasselblad and Fuji are 4:3, not 4:5. That’s 180.

The S4 will be crucial - if they release a 180 MPX system it’s going to be a tougher sell for P1; if they stay at 100 it means Phase has first dibs at the tech and it will time to trickle down to smaller players most likely because the price from Sony is still high ex factory.

I am also unsure whether a smaller crop MF sensor has been announced yet.

So it could very well be that the IQ5 will be the only next gen Sony offering in 2025 and the rest to come a bit later, which would give them a headstart. That's why the S4 is so interesting – it is a real possibility for them to get 180, if Sony is able to deliver it to them now.

I also think that once PR materials, videos etc are out people will buy although they are on the fence now.

Digital backs from Phase still are unique with their C1 integration, lack of PDAF issues etc and once they add proper next gen IO and maybe an EVF it becomes interestingly differentiated.

 

[BigBoy]

Let’s be real here a used 100mp Fuji is around 2700 -3000. When Fuji and Hassy release their new 180mp cameras the 100mp cameras will become 2,000 for Fuji and about 3-4000 for Hassy used. Brand name 180mp will be between 5,000 to 8,000 with the best tech available for Fuji and Hassy. While phase one is just going to be bigger sensor for around 40,000 or 50,000 more lol. I fear for regular consumers if they are a fan of phase one.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think the challenge for Phase will be do add technology to their product which makes the expenditure worthwhile.

If they can squeeze out more DR than everyone else and have extensive I/O it could make it differentiated enough for their clientele.

Some people just want a solid digital back - not a Fuji - it’s not about megapixels

 

[hcubell]

180MP is very close to 200. That is truly negligible. The historic MP advantage enjoyed by Phase would have disappeared. Phase would have to offer some powerful other features unique to its IQ5. Even then, it's only for tech cameras and a legacy DSLR from 2015. A very niche market.
I have no idea about the roadmap for Fuji and Hasselblad. However, I would expect that they would control the market for larger than FF sensors based upon the new Sony sensor. The number of cropped MF sensors that they would buy likely dwarfs what Phase could buy. I expect that the days are over when Phase could demand exclusivity. It's all about volume.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Here's the calc sheet I did a while back:



P1 is not only about the resolution - the backs are differentiated with their I/O, compatibility across tech cams and all Rodie and SK lenses.

Its the tool for tech cam people. Whether in general people are willing to completely say goodbye to Alpa, Cambo, XT and move to a Fuji / Hassy system remains to be seen.

To this day the new Hassy back has issues with wide angle lenses and it is not compatible with C1.

We don't know yet which bells and whistles they'll add to the system - could be more DR - which would be an absolute killer reason to buy it.

Phase historically had an edge technologically with regards to the sensor and ancillary features and before the spec sheet for the new IQ5 is out it remains to be seen whether they are still differentiated enough.

Don't forget dynamic range, I/O, etc.

In fact two crop chips are possible:

48x36 = 220 MPX
44x33 = 184 MPX

None of these have been announced. So chances are P1 hasc first dibs on 811 gen Sony and it'll take a while for it to trickle down.

What if 184 MPX is only a 2026 thing for all players? - It would give them a headstart.

Finally let's not forget the x shutter - flash sync at 1/1000 with large IC tech cam glass which allows for movements and stitching.

Also – P1 sells achro backs. Small market, but a market nonetheless!

Chances are that an IQ5 will last you through 2031 - also nice to know.

 

[Paul2660]

I can’t imagine hand holding a 247mp back with no IBIS. I gave up hand holding P1 backs with the 3100.
The XT has a way to high cost of entry for me so that’s out also.
P1 should have come out with a EVF solution for the IQ4 instead it took over two years to come out with a kinda OK solution to view the image via C1 mobile. They had HDMI out with the launch of the IQ4 but never figured out a way to allow the user to zoom in and move around the image at 100 percent.

For the cost and lack of modern features, it’s a total pass for me.

Paul

 

[Doppler9000]

Cool, any technical documentation you can provide to prove this?

Eager to see some test samples when the moment will come.
Just out of my technical curiosity, not that I can afford having such state of the art technology in any case.

I'll stop here with this digression.

Jim Kasson’s blog analyzes this question - worth a look around. My recollection is that GFX lenses would be good to North of 500 MP on a 33x44mm sensor.

 

[BigBoy]

Here's the calc sheet I did a while back:

View attachment 216266

P1 is not only about the resolution - the backs are differentiated with their I/O, compatibility across tech cams and all Rodie and SK lenses.

Its the tool for tech cam people. Whether in general people are willing to completely say goodbye to Alpa, Cambo, XT and move to a Fuji / Hassy system remains to be seen.

To this day the new Hassy back has issues with wide angle lenses and it is not compatible with C1.

We don't know yet which bells and whistles they'll add to the system - could be more DR - which would be an absolute killer reason to buy it.

Phase historically had an edge technologically with regards to the sensor and ancillary features and before the spec sheet for the new IQ5 is out it remains to be seen whether they are still differentiated enough.

Don't forget dynamic range, I/O, etc.

In fact two crop chips are possible:

48x36 = 220 MPX
44x33 = 184 MPX

None of these have been announced. So chances are P1 hasc first dibs on 811 gen Sony and it'll take a while for it to trickle down.

What if 184 MPX is only a 2026 thing for all players? - It would give them a headstart.

Finally let's not forget the x shutter - flash sync at 1/1000 with large IC tech cam glass which allows for movements and stitching.

Also – P1 sells achro backs. Small market, but a market nonetheless!

Chances are that an IQ5 will last you through 2031 - also nice to know.

Back in the day I can see phase one being first where there was slow movement in the medium format world and it use to be mainly DSLRs now not so much. Fuji,Leica,Hassy is going to make so much for Sony that I doubt phase one is the first in anything anymore it can be the opposite actually. Hassy and Fuji dictate what phase one does base on their clientele. Dynamic range I bet is not going to be that different to warrant an extra $40,000 dollars. sorry for poor writing

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The photo business is just a side piece of P1 these days … they are leading in geospatial, industrial applications …

In fact it is most likely only for them that Sony pushes out such a large chip. It is not useful for industrial machine vision applications to have smaller DoF and a large chip.

It is literally only useful for geospatial where you can get higher ground magnification with say a Rodie 90 HR on a plane looking down and in photography …

Also this forum is not really representative of the wider market given the more senior user base here. P1 will push the new platform across Photo, geospatial and CH … they will be fine and no amateur is forced to give up their beloved Fuji if they can’t justify it.

Phase doesn’t care about retail clientele - they are fine at their price point … and have always been. Given how they changed during the last years with their move into drones, CH, space tech - they are just fine to cross sell their backs to the few who want it.

Essentially a P1 back is a ultra high end industrial technology product packaged up for photography while Fuji et al are more what you could call pure photography businesses.

So one can be thankful that the option of their products exists and no one is forced to buy it.

IMHO GAS will be strong and it will be a success given the large global installed base of Phase backs.

 

[Reginald Fluggelding]

A 2:3 chip would erase much of the reason people gravitate towards the full frame backs. I crop my portrait frames to 5:4 so I would be even worse off with the equivalent of 45 x 36 mm. Cropping regular frames to 4:3 gets 47.94 x 36 mm. It’s giving away 10% of one side of the frame to get a MP boost which isn’t meaningfully improving anything: and losing the beauty of the crop factor.

I can already print 300PPI at 1200 mm with stand up close to the print detail, 180PPI at 2000 mm wide which is still excellent and that’s before doing any upscaling. That's before doing any stitching. 250 MP would be cool but relatively useless. More DR, connectivity, battery advancements, EVF and the sensor aspect ratio are far more important.

I think we’ve crossed over that threshold where MP makes any meaningful difference and those other factors, DR, UI, usability, etc. are more important. Before my IQ4-150 I was shooting commercial work with a close to 10 year old CCD back. It was hard work but doable. The files and look were still nicer than my much newer GFX (first model).

Not to mention nearly any photo I have to work on in photoshop has to be saved in large document format and I end up with hundreds of GB’s for each project. Hard drives are relatively cheap but not when you need SSD to work off, and multiple backups. Regular HDDs are still the only cost effective option for backing up a large amount of data and that also takes time and effort to do.

Hard pass on 250MP 3:2 for me

 

[Paul Spinnler]

They can do quad sensor plus at 60 MPX for example which should yield incredibly low noise and high detail files. But 3:2 is a big obstacle.

I think the thinking and marketing spiel will revolve around cropping. Technologically, I wonder if they can exploit the higher resolution for some sort of multi-gain readout, or some advanced Sensor+ tricks for super clean ISO 1600 etc.

On cropping: The idea would be to say if your favorite focal length right now is 50mm just shoot 40mm, crop it and you still have a higher res file than before with a similar FoV, although different DoF.

I personally don't like 3:2 so much, my main and only gripe with the S3.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

@Steve Hendrix: How do you see the impact of them releasing the 247 MPX / 3:2 chip?

We need to somehow let them know that it will be a disappointment for all P1 back lovers to lose one of the main draws of P1's full frame sensor backs, namely the more large formatesque aspect ratio of 54x40mm which has become very much loved by all IQ4 owners...

They've made the whole main USP of the IQ4 generation that they're on 54x40 and going back to 54x36 will be a massive let-down and might actually lead to many not upgrading because ... the IQ4 is just fine.

 

[ThdeDude]

And 3:2? Seriously? Makes me chuckle thinking about all the P1 promotional material over the years that endlessly emphasised the importance (both practical and aesthetic) that 4:3 had over 'the lesser' 3:2 ratio.

To be heretical here, a good argument can be made for a (more) square format. Rotating or reversing the DB back or the whole camera is a pain. With so much resolution, cropping down a square image to 3:2 or 4:3 shouldn't be an issue even for the most demanding application.

If wider aspect is wanted without cropping use (in-camera) panorama function or stitching.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

The main line of argument I see for this chip in 3:2 is that if you crop it to an 54x40 equivalent aspect ratio you still have more resolution than with the IQ4 150. Assuming lenses resolve it, you have no loss except that you need to go one down focal lenght wise.

I love the 50 HR for example. So with the new chip I could shoot the 40 HR, crop in to a 54x40 format and have a bigger file still than 150 megapixels with a FoV of 50 HR so to say (haven't calculated the real translation, just an example), although DoF will be different given I used a 40mm lens.

So you could argue you only have benefits with 247 like for like.

From that perspective you just gain additional options and lose nothing assuming you're ok with a bit less DoF and are ok to use wider lenses.

The 43 and 40 HR come to mind in particular.

So the XC40 indeed is the ultimate lens for the IQ5.

The new IQ5 makes especially the 32, 40, more interesting.

 

[Doppler9000]

From that perspective you just gain additional options and lose nothing…

Well, nothing in addition to the 60,000 to buy it…. ; )

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Well, nothing in addition to the 60,000 to buy it…. ; )

Touché!

But you know, price / performance ratio has long been thrown overboard with P1 ...