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Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Hulyss - I would take half of what you have on offer, even a tenth as long as the EVF - which incidentally I agree should be a clip on giving you flexibility to use either an EVF or an optical finder - is developed and as long as I can have one body and 3-4 lenses, one of which needs to be equivalent to 21mm. I don't even need fast lenses. I'll use a tripod or as they are leaf shutters I can shoot them down to 1/30th with ease. And it must be the Merrill sensor. Please!

LouisB

Some might say that poooor Sigma corporation can't make it but I say Sigma corporation CAN make it, around 70% of it. No need to be a rocket scientist to see, in this speculation, that 70% of it is largely possible within a year of work for any kind of electromechanical engineer. Just to make a prototype.

For sure, a new processor is needed. The EVF is completely possible and the money is here !! Kill this damn SA mount, kill the SD camera line and you'll save money, for sure.

The lenses already exist on the DP. Put a stiff mount on them and power it with the body : You have your First compact LF interchangeable lenses. This is what I call a buzz. Make some bigger ones like f1.2 primes and your ok. here we speak for an APS-C model.

For FF... SIGMA know they need to do one. They even know they are obliged to do one.

There is one basic rule, outside pixel world, that many photographers seems to ignore or denies: "The less the enlargement the better the picture".

FF is the way, even with less pixels than Merrill, picture will be better.

Even Kasuto Yamaki liked my idea. Have a look in the past, January 2014:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/43983768203/permalink/10151833688033204/
 

Sapphie

Member
Funny really, I have been wanting a way to sometimes make my Merrill pictures look more like my Fuji X-Trans ... Iridient has a 'Foveon Soft Look' Option, which I like because with SPP sometimes they can look too harsh.

I have also been wanting a way to make my X-Trans images look a bit more Foveon-like because sometimes they are too soft.

Maybe, for me, a Quattro would be a good compromise?

Lee
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Funny really, I have been wanting a way to sometimes make my Merrill pictures look more like my Fuji X-Trans ... Iridient has a 'Foveon Soft Look' Option, which I like because with SPP sometimes they can look too harsh.

I have also been wanting a way to make my X-Trans images look a bit more Foveon-like because sometimes they are too soft.

Maybe, for me, a Quattro would be a good compromise?

Lee
You got it. It is SPP the problem and not the sensor. The problem always been in the signal interpretation rather than in the hardware. But, if the sensor is up-scaled, some of those problems would vanish even with poor SPP.

I'm not Xtrans fan, got the XT1 and all the big glasses ... far away from what can be done with foveon and normal bayer. Xtrans was/is a handicap rather than an evolution. Fuji did FAR better back in the day of the S3/S5 pro. PPl who used them know what I mean. An S5 pro still have better DR at base ISO than a A7Rii... With this hype and PR attitude, for me, Fuji is like a sister enterprise of Sony; nothing more.

Of course I can backup what I say because I still have numerous RAF done with the touit (not that good lenses...) and other holy trinity lenses. Also on this forum, I seen some early evangelists "I thrown my ff gear and now I'm shooting only XT-1" disappearing like magic :)

With time and observation you see how much ppl are unstable.

Maybe, for me, a Quattro would be a good compromise?
The best compromise, Imho, is patience. It is also the ability to not rush buying the latest "goody" and trying to spot the cult device, like the D700 and other real good devices out-there (the D810 is good but... it is not something as cool as the D700 was in his time) . The Merrill is cult device. All the Canon devices are cult also. Lenses, cameras ... very good stuff.
 

Sapphie

Member
I'd love to see some more DP0Q shots from somebody to get this thread back on subject! I am not blaming anyone for the deviation - I am as guilty with my last post.

Lee
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Yes, sorry for the deviation. I just want to tell you that the Quattro is FAR better than the XT-1 for any kind of landscape/architecture shoot (if you bracket). I can, if you want, give you RAF of XT-1 + 12mm Touit combo... you'll see that money do not bring performance :D
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
I still have a DP2Q and DP1Q. Also, of course, the Merrills.

I'd buy another foveon based camera - even the Quattro perversion of it - if (a) the highlight clipping issue is resolved; (b) lower noise floor at base and up to 400 ISO and (c) full frame, with about 50% more pixels than the Quattro (that would be the equivalent of 60 bayer pixels).

I'm perfectly happy with a 3 prime interchangeable lens solution, or even, at a pinch, a new generation of fixed lens cameras with superb optics like the Merrills or the DP0Q have.

No one was a bigger fan of the Merrills than I was, and no one more disappointed by the issues with the Quattros. I have to believe Sigma can, and will, do better.
 

xpatUSA

Member
Funny really, I have been wanting a way to sometimes make my Merrill pictures look more like my Fuji X-Trans ... Iridient has a 'Foveon Soft Look' Option, which I like because with SPP sometimes they can look too harsh.
You probably know that SPP over-sharpens X3F files at "zero" sharpening. Recently, I did some "slant-edge" testing on my SD1M comparing some lenses. The results for my sharpest lens confirmed the over-sharpening. For my camera/lens combination a just over neutral setting for sharpness is -1.0. Others over on DPR use -1.8 or even -2.0 and sharpen to taste elsewhere.

Then there is the effect of down-sampling. If you do that, your image gets sharpened more by which I mean that frequencies that were not aliased but were close to Nyquist will be aliased by normal down-sampling algorithms.

For this reason I normally shoot the SD1M in low-resolution raw 2336x1568px (shock, horror).

I have also been wanting a way to make my X-Trans images look a bit more Foveon-like because sometimes they are too soft.
If you have RawTherapee, their LR de-convolution sharpening plus their micro-contrast can make scenes look pretty gritty. Over on DPR's Sigma Forum, @scottelly offered a "Merrillized" X100(?) image amid a totally unwarranted storm of derision, but some of the efforts there were pretty good. Mine was best, of course :)

Maybe, for me, a Quattro would be a good compromise?

Lee
As has already been said, Quattro comes with it's own baggage; quite a step to get more film-like images unless you have exhausted all other possibilities . . .

Ted
 
Ted's suggestion about turning down sharpening in SPP is a good one. I use -0.8 but even lower settings are justifiable. Another suggestion: reduce colour noise reduction. I don't know why, but this setting doesn't just reduce colour noise, it also enhances that gritty micro-contrast the Merrill is renowned for - in fact, it kind of creates it.


Funny really, I have been wanting a way to sometimes make my Merrill pictures look more like my Fuji X-Trans ... Iridient has a 'Foveon Soft Look' Option, which I like because with SPP sometimes they can look too harsh.

I have also been wanting a way to make my X-Trans images look a bit more Foveon-like because sometimes they are too soft.

Maybe, for me, a Quattro would be a good compromise?

Lee
 

biglouis

Well-known member
I've spent most of the day sorting out my photo library and in particular looking for items I can put into my stock photo account. Eventually, I got back to the captures from the DP0Q I owned for a few weeks. I reproduce them here for anyone interested in seeing more output from the camera.

One thing which did improve the results was to go straight from SPP6.3 to jpeg. My usual process with Sigma cameras is to use SPP to convert to TIFF, then I import into Lightroom and do any further PP there or if necessary in Photoshop. I have to say that I think going straight from SPP to jpeg may actually improve the results. I don't know if anyone else just uses SPP as a RAW and final processor in this way.

I freely admit this is a weird collection of photos, so I am not making any claims for my skill and indeed maybe that is where my dissatisfaction with the DP0Q stems. Perhaps my skills are not up to using the camera to its best ability.

All of these were taken in a place called Hayling Island which is on the south coast of England and is a real island which can only be accessed from the mainland via a bridge. It is stuck a little in a time warp and it also was a location for the constructions of some of the Mulberry Harbour sections used during D-Day (the large concrete constructions below).

























 

retow

Member
^^^ When it is good, it is very, very good ^^^
I paid about $900 for an excellent 21mm equiv. lens to which a quirky body with an outstanding sensor was attached. Oh, I almost forgot the lcd EVF and a spare battery was in the package as well. Quite a bargain when considering the IQ this combo can produce.
 

Sapphie

Member
Thanks Louis - they look great to me - you should get another DP0Q!. I rarely bother with TIFF as they clutter up my hard drive! For my DP2Q I am finding that the selected colour mode in SPP makes a big difference on default sharpness. And is it just me or are the reds from these cameras (thinking of the phone box here) on some sort of drug trip?

Lee
 

biglouis

Well-known member
Thanks Louis - they look great to me - you should get another DP0Q!. I rarely bother with TIFF as they clutter up my hard drive! For my DP2Q I am finding that the selected colour mode in SPP makes a big difference on default sharpness. And is it just me or are the reds from these cameras (thinking of the phone box here) on some sort of drug trip?

Lee
Lee, I may indeed do that as and when they fall further in price. My mistake was paying too much for the one from Amazon. They have fallen by roughly £170 since then and unfortunately I think that after Xmas they will fall further as merchants realise no one really wants them (except a select few!).

I noticed the over-saturated reds, as well. That to me is all part of the Sigma look - almost like Velvia in a way.

Louis
 

Sapphie

Member
Lee, I may indeed do that as and when they fall further in price. My mistake was paying too much for the one from Amazon. They have fallen by roughly £170 since then and unfortunately I think that after Xmas they will fall further as merchants realise no one really wants them (except a select few!).

I noticed the over-saturated reds, as well. That to me is all part of the Sigma look - almost like Velvia in a way.

Louis
Amazon had one bundled with the LVF-01 for £760 a couple of weeks ago but their prices seem to fluctuate - it's over £800 now. I got my DP2Q + LVF-01 + lens hood for just £600 used but in perfect condition. Just for once I think I got a bargain.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of cashback scheme from Sigma soon.

Lee
 

Stoneage

Member
For my DP2Q I am finding that the selected colour mode in SPP makes a big difference on default sharpness. And is it just me or are the reds from these cameras (thinking of the phone box here) on some sort of drug trip?

Lee
In my opinion, Quattro reds are broken with SPP. One solution to avoid over saturated, noisy reds is to use the portrait color mode. This also keeps the general noise under control.
"Imaging resource" also measured a "default saturation" of 112% percent for the DP2Q, while especially reds are "pumped" even much more.
"Dark red is pumped quite a bit, while purples and dark blues are boosted moderately."
If i can't handle the reds in my images, i sometimes use a Kalpanika (X3F-tools) conversion and "repair" the reds with it, as it seems much more natural in its rendering.
 
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biglouis

Well-known member
Amazon had one bundled with the LVF-01 for £760 a couple of weeks ago but their prices seem to fluctuate - it's over £800 now. I got my DP2Q + LVF-01 + lens hood for just £600 used but in perfect condition. Just for once I think I got a bargain.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of cashback scheme from Sigma soon.

Lee
That is a bargain. Especially as the LVF can be used on any DP Quattro camera - which lowers the cost of owning a DP0Q even more. I must admit I have set up a search on ebay for a s/h DP0Q. I wonder if Sigma disease is treatable?

In my opinion, Quattro reds are broken with SPP. One solution to avoid over saturated, noisy reds is to use the portrait color mode. This also keeps the general noise under control.
"Imaging resource" also measured a "default saturation" of 112% percent for the DP2Q, while especially reds are "pumped" even much more.
"Dark red is pumped quite a bit, while purples and dark blues are boosted moderately."
If i can't handle the reds in my images, i sometimes use a Kalpanika (X3F-tools) conversion and "repair" the reds with it, as it sees much more natural in its rendering.
Personally, if I could be bothered I would use the hue/saturation controls in Lightroom to balance the reds.

It is a matter of taste but to me this is the Sigma look.

LouisB
 

Stoneage

Member
It is a matter of taste but to me this is the Sigma look.
Not sure if i can agree to that. What is "the Sigma look"?
We've seen such different results from every Sigma camera, from the SD9 to SD14, SD15 and SD1, or DP1/2 to DP Merrill and DP Quattro. We had over saturated blues, muted blues, we had green
color casts, we had reds turning pink, now we have noisy Quattro-reds...
The only "Sigma look" that i recognize across all models is their pixel sharpness and lack of color moiré.
 
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