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An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Agreed. But recently I've been getting that same kind of flexibility from my Canon 1Ds3 files in C1!
Yes I know that and I know the reason why too. LOL

Most folks will have to wait to see those reasons in a couple weeks. :D

let's just keep everyone tuned in a little here. C1 Version 5 rocks the house. :thumbs:

Counting hours to get out of here. My flight tomorrow is not soon enough. My wife decided to have a garage sale next week and is ripping the place apart. I am left with no place to hide anymore. GET ME OUTTA HERE.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
I wasn't specifically thinking of your post. Others have stated pretty clearly (not necessarily in this forum) that Leica is foolish for not pricing it at that level. How anyone can make statements like that without knowing what it cost to make one is beyond me.

I am sure that the S2 would be a runaway bestseller at $10-12k, but I am equally sure that it would put Leica out of business, with a heavy loss on every camera.
Dear Carsten,
I'm not so sure (about the bestseller part. Otherwise, I agree) . On thing that everyone is ignoring is the volume needed to generate the same profit. R&D will be an enormous amount to amortize; if it is say 5k R&D and 5K variable, there is a 7x margin difference (12-10=2 vs 24-10=14). Having seen the production methods at Leica (and Phase) these things have little scale. They could never increase volume 7-fold. Look at the wait for lenses!

On the other side, even at $8k, there are people who will just think "i'm just not into Leica" Even if ALL the photographers on LL, hear and LUF bought it if they were in the market, it is a tiny fraction of the market needed.

I remember, when the MB ML series came out it was close to the Jeep price, yet Jeep outsold.

In 1992 I leased a C class for my daughter LESS than a comparable Toyota!

You may not like it, but people pigeonhole themselves, and whether its MB or Leica, tearing people from mass market products is tough.

As a high end producer, you might as well take the extra money, because you ain't gonna get the extra volume.

regards
Victor
 
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dougpeterson

Workshop Member
P40 file is looking impressive! (But frankly, at least from a DR standpoint, not that different from your P30+ --- maybe 1/3 a stop in the shadows?)
He did say it was at ISO 100. The main difference between ISO 50 and ISO 100 on the P40+ is less dynamic range if the image needs to be recovered in highlights or shadows.

But yes, the difference is not night-and-day between a 30+ and 40+; IMO (and I know it sounds a bit sale-ish but I mean it from a purely technical view) is that they decreased the micron size and the usable DR went UP rather than down.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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carstenw

Active member
I agree that I had hoped that it would come in less than €20k with the 70mm, but unlike some, I don't think that Leica is over-pricing items. I believe that it just cost that much to R&D and build them.

Anyway, is it what it is. Each of us will look at the price and think yes or no. End of story.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jono they probably will sell to the hobbyist , more of my point is this is directed at Pro's and to get them to jump ship or buy up or whatever it is going to be the challenge. Than again we have to see where leica really wants to target for the hobbyist many things as Victor said won't matter much but some selling point will matter and the rest is a easy compromise to buy. That I agree with, it don't have to be perfect on everything. Now if they are going after the Pro's than they are going after a market they really never went after in a sense. So they have to change the plan and there strategy to get Pro's to jump.
Hi Guy
but . . . my point is that if they can sell all the cameras they make then they don't need to spend extra money wooing you - or anyone else (and which business cared who they sold to . . as long as they can sell everything they make at a decent margin)
 
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Dale Allyn

New member
I think that the error here is the belief that the S-2 is targeted at pros (regardless of Leica's stated target market [read: marketing]). I believe that the S-2 is very simply targeted at anyone with $50K or so in disposable income. One thousand units is very few when one considers the size of the pool of wealthy enthusiasts globally, in addition to any pros who can justify it from a business point of view.

In Bangkok (where I am currently) 7-series BMWs go for $340K or so, and there are a zillion of them. Seoul has real money, as does Hong Kong and mainland China, etc. In these parts of the world it is still quite common to see abundant and conspicuous consumption of luxury brands. $50K is chump change when it comes to these status symbols. And a lot of the "enthusiast market" consumers will be a lot lower maintenance for Leica than will working pros.

I'm not saying that the S-2 is only a status symbol, but simply saying if they can only deliver 1000 units, I doubt the real goal is to get a big part of the pro market on board for anything other than projecting credibility.
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
Well, I've really enjoyed reading this thread - fascinating!

Rarely has so much been written by so many who have seen the files of so few....(With apologies to Winston Churchill.)

But just like y'all, I can't wait to handle, load and shoot an S2!

Bill
 

carstenw

Active member
I am not sure how many S2s Leica will be able to sell to the kind of collector who never opens it. If they were special editions, sure, but they are not. I am sure that the wealthy enthusiast will figure in their income, however.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I am not sure how many S2s Leica will be able to sell to the kind of collector who never opens it. If they were special editions, sure, but they are not. I am sure that the wealthy enthusiast will figure in their income, however.
If they don't sell enough of them in fairly good order, it'll become a "collector's item" by default ;) Rarity breeds scarcity, which leads to feeding frenzies amongst the freshly filthy rich.

Perhaps Leica's "real" marketing target was revealed at the M9 launch when they gave a S2 to Seal instead of Annie Leibovitz, or some other well known pro photographer?

-Marc
 

jonoslack

Active member
If they don't sell enough of them in fairly good order, it'll become a "collector's item" by default ;) Rarity breeds scarcity, which leads to feeding frenzies amongst the freshly filthy rich.

Perhaps Leica's "real" marketing target was revealed at the M9 launch when they gave a S2 to Seal instead of Annie Leibovitz, or some other well known pro photographer?

-Marc
:ROTFL:
Well, it could certainly have been worse!

I imagine Leica simply want to make money, and will be happy to sell their camera to whoever will buy it. As Dale said, they only need a few professionals for credibility. Mind you, if it's as good as it might be, then I would have thought there will be professionals who can and will afford the price of entry.

Interesting that when this discussion came up before in June, the arguments were all pretty much the same (from the same people). What has changed since then is the M9 - one of the central parts of the argument then was that the S2 was make or break for Leica, but the obvious popularity of the M9, and likely sales of the X1 mean that probably isn't the case anymore.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I think that is right Jono.

The M9 was a sure bet and a very smart move. Every dealer in the country has a long list of back-orders for the M9, and that will keep the cash flow moving if they can handle production. One would think pressure on the S2 has to be lessened by this.

-Marc
 

PeterA

Well-known member
There are more amateur enthusiasts shooting with Alpa gear than pro shooters. Same with Leica M. The same will be so for the S2. There are more amateur drivers in Lambos/Ferraris and Maclarens than pros. there are more amateur owners of diamonds and designer clothing than models or their gay agents etc etc etc etc etc

The eccentric fondler amateur shooter wants to buy nice looking sexy stuff - or NOTHING. Same with cars - the enthusiast will buy the best she or he can afford. Petrol heads and Car collectors are nutzo - be it having to have the latest this or that or the biggest this or that or the fastest this or that or the best example of this or that - as long as it is SEXY looking and has some brag factor - money is no object.

Lets be frank - the S2 is the best looking SLR camera wearing a 40 megapixeld chip out there. It has black beautiful velvety web shots made of its lenses - the marketing angle is pure jewelry/exotic sport car ..

Against which we the stodgy my clunky crapola camera is better thna your crapola looking camera and my megapixels are beter than your megapixels competition. I mean phse One's idea of selling sex is ..having an elephant stand on their camera back - liek thats real world??? It is utilitarian MF pro shootin gear - which can have an elephant stand on it.. I mean no Leica person WANTS an elephant standing on his or her camera - they want the camera looking cool.

I understand this desire very much. I have a scratch itching so hard I mean so hard to buy the S2. My brain tells me I dont need one - my heart is laughing at my brain and helping raionalise the Siren's Call -:)

In fact all you guys know you want one.

Whoever doesnt get one - will have all sorts of rationalisations for not getting one, all sorts of my Jap car is better than your R8...
Whoever buys one - wont have any rationalizations - they will just have a grin from ear to ear on their face .


I hope these facts dont upset anyone - cos I know the truth hurts. Leica understands their place in the universe. make the coolest gear and sell it it people willing to pay massive premiums for the coolest gear.

Simple really


This is why the S2 with all its comparative point by point disadvantages will make Leica a lot of money - as long as it works better than the M8 did on launch - they have nothing to worry about.

If you few dozen pros also happen to be fondlers - all the better. No one is going to listen to the voices from the Gulag saying that a 5D11 is more camera than anyone needs....

Teh ONLY response existing manufacturers have will be price reductions..
Leica wont budge. the price reductions will be about fighting teh utilitarian established players losing games...Leica wil have a lot of margin to come down on - bu they wont use it much..
 
This guy certainly doesn't.
Perhaps you have handled the S2, I don't know. However, I think most photographers will want the S2 after they get a chance to handle the camera and see the files that it and the lenses produce.

Granted, wanting an S2 and justifying the purchase are two entirely different things.

Mark
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Wow, cameras as cars or jewelry? I guess I get part of that for some folks, but honestly not me. To me they -- meaning cameras -- are just tools and sex appeal has little to do with what I choose or why I choose it. Cars, yeah, I like great looking cars as much as the next guy, but reality dictates I need to drive an SUV -- I couldn't get all my photo gear into a Corvette! :D
 
D

ddk

Guest
Peter is right, I know that customer very well. Many well to do gentlemen in the Far East have hobbies like high-end audio, collecting cars or watches and pens, both for prestige and social opportunities. Many of them have a Leica, Rollei, or Hassy sitting on some shelf or maybe even behind glass somewhere in their home. I've been working with such crowds for many years, all you need is for a couple of people in each group to buy an S2 and flaunt to others before half of that social group would own one, the rest will wait for S3 so they can buy their S2 from the current owners who will hardly ever use it. Its not a mentality or personality type that most can understand or sympathize with in the West.
 

carstenw

Active member
Perhaps Leica's "real" marketing target was revealed at the M9 launch when they gave a S2 to Seal instead of Annie Leibovitz, or some other well known pro photographer?
<black humour warning>Maybe they were afraid she would pawn it.</black humour warning>

Seal has some connection with Leica in recent times, and he is well known. I would have liked to see another one go to Sebastiao Salgado or something of that stature, but there is still time for this.
 
G

gdwhalen

Guest
<black humour warning>Maybe they were afraid she would pawn it.</black humour warning>

Seal has some connection with Leica in recent times, and he is well known. I would have liked to see another one go to Sebastiao Salgado or something of that stature, but there is still time for this.

I'm not sure how any of us would know who Leica gives free equipment to. I'm pretty sure that they don't publish that list.
 
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